Re: [GENERAL] Oracle buys Innobase

http://lnk.nu/prnewswire.com/4dv.pl
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Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant jnasby(at)pervasive(dot)com
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Jim C. Nasby wrote:
> http://lnk.nu/prnewswire.com/4dv.pl

Amazing. You have to love the totally unrelated license mention Oracle
added to the press release:

InnoDB is not a standalone database product: it is distributed as a
part of the MySQL database. InnoDB's contractual relationship with
MySQL comes up for renewal next year. Oracle fully expects to negotiate
an extension of that relationship.

Read $$$.

This is the logical way Oracle would attack a competitor (buy up a key
piece of their technology). Oracle looked for MySQL's easiest weakness
to exploit, and found it. It isn't even vaguely cloaked, because InnoDB
doesn't even have a db product, it is just licensed by MySQL. This
certainly puts a dent in the MySQL 5.0 press buzz, which I suppose was
part of the timing.

Do open source users want licensed technology from a company owned by
Oracle? I doubt it. My guess is that the InnoDB license will now be
used as FUD against MySQL perpetually.

This might also be related to the article by the MySQL CEO saying they
are not competing with Oracle:

http://www.cbronline.com/article_news.asp?guid=9231B8BD-3788-4DB2-B85F-707E75857B58

This might be a sort of detente saying MySQL will not move into Oracle
accounts. Certainly the MySQL CEO must have known this was coming, so
his comments now appear in a different light.

What is our vulnerability? Oracle offering big-money jobs to PostgreSQL
developers. I think that is our only weakness, unless they buy Marc
(Marc, are you for sale? :-) ) and own the domains and trademark.

Ultimately, MySQL should drop InnoDB.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Bruce,

> What is our vulnerability?  Oracle offering big-money jobs to PostgreSQL
> developers.  I think that is our only weakness, unless they buy Marc
> (Marc, are you for sale? :-):-) ) and own the domains and trademark.

Well, that *is* a serious concern. That's why Marc and I are working on
making sure these things are legally protected.

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

On Fri, Oct 07, 2005 at 03:02:57PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> What is our vulnerability? Oracle offering big-money jobs to PostgreSQL
> developers. I think that is our only weakness, unless they buy Marc
> (Marc, are you for sale? :-) ) and own the domains and trademark.

That strikes me as a good reason to get the trademarks out from any
one person's control. While I certainly trust Marc not to abuse
them, nothing is safer than institutional protection. In the
unlikely event that Marc was unable to defend the things he holds in
trust for the community, some agent could determine that the best
settlement could be achieved by selling the "asset" to someone.

A

--
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In the future this spectacle of the middle classes shocking the avant-
garde will probably become the textbook definition of Postmodernism.
--Brad Holland

> Ultimately, MySQL should drop InnoDB.

This will happen eventually, there is no doubt, Sun seems like its
going to eventually integrate PostgreSQL into Solaris as a pkg most
likely:

http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;116679278;fp;16;fpid;0

Hopefully that should make PostgreSQL shine even more. Maybe we
may also see some @sun.com contributers, okay that maybe wishful thinking.

Cheers,

Aly.

--
Aly S.P Dharshi
aly(dot)dharshi(at)telus(dot)net

"A good speech is like a good dress
that's short enough to be interesting
and long enough to cover the subject"

Aly S.P Dharshi wrote:
>
> > Ultimately, MySQL should drop InnoDB.
>
> This will happen eventually, there is no doubt, Sun seems like its
> going to eventually integrate PostgreSQL into Solaris as a pkg most
> likely:
>
> http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;116679278;fp;16;fpid;0
>
> Hopefully that should make PostgreSQL shine even more. Maybe we
> may also see some @sun.com contributers, okay that maybe wishful thinking.

I have seen @sun.com posters already, so it has started.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Bruce Momjian <pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us> writes:
> Ultimately, MySQL should drop InnoDB.

Given that MyISAM is still their first love, I don't think that outcome
is preposterous at all. If Oracle tries to squeeze too hard, that's
probably exactly what they'll do. It'll put a bit of a dent in their
claims to having transaction support, but I think their bread-and-butter
applications are still mostly MyISAM.

regards, tom lane

On Fri, 7 Oct 2005, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> What is our vulnerability? Oracle offering big-money jobs to PostgreSQL
> developers. I think that is our only weakness, unless they buy Marc
> (Marc, are you for sale? :-) ) and own the domains and trademark.

I'm not for sale, else I would have sold a *long* time ago ...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy(at)hub(dot)org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

Bruce Momjian <pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us> schrieb:
> Ultimately, MySQL should drop InnoDB.

http://forums.mysql.com/read.php?3,48400,48400#msg-48400

InnoDB is GPL. But, i'm also confused.

My guess: a fork in the future.

Regards, Andreas
--
Really, I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a completely
unintentional side effect. (Linus Torvalds)
Kaufbach, Saxony, Germany, Europe. N 51.05082°, E 13.56889°

On 10/8/2005 4:34 AM, Andreas Kretschmer wrote:

> Bruce Momjian <pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us> schrieb:
>> Ultimately, MySQL should drop InnoDB.
>
> http://forums.mysql.com/read.php?3,48400,48400#msg-48400
>
> InnoDB is GPL. But, i'm also confused.
>
> My guess: a fork in the future.

This whole GPL forking thing is still the same as it was before. One can
only take the last version, released under GPL, and build a GPL-only
project based on it.

Oracle bought the copyright of InnoDB with the company. So if anything
goes wrong during their upcoming relicensing talk, MySQL can of course
fork off a GPL version of InnoDB, but that fork cannot be included in
their commercial version of MySQL. What value would that fork have for
them then? Using a pure GPL fork of InnoDB is in conflict with their own
licensing scheme and I don't think MySQL is in the position to say bye
to dual licensing.

To have a really good position when talking to Oracle, MySQL will need
to brush up on the BDB support, and that pretty quick.

Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com #

Jan Wieck wrote:
> On 10/8/2005 4:34 AM, Andreas Kretschmer wrote:
>
> > Bruce Momjian <pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us> schrieb:
> >> Ultimately, MySQL should drop InnoDB.
> >
> > http://forums.mysql.com/read.php?3,48400,48400#msg-48400
> >
> > InnoDB is GPL. But, i'm also confused.
> >
> > My guess: a fork in the future.
>
> This whole GPL forking thing is still the same as it was before. One can
> only take the last version, released under GPL, and build a GPL-only
> project based on it.
>
> Oracle bought the copyright of InnoDB with the company. So if anything
> goes wrong during their upcoming relicensing talk, MySQL can of course
> fork off a GPL version of InnoDB, but that fork cannot be included in
> their commercial version of MySQL. What value would that fork have for
> them then? Using a pure GPL fork of InnoDB is in conflict with their own
> licensing scheme and I don't think MySQL is in the position to say bye
> to dual licensing.
>
> To have a really good position when talking to Oracle, MySQL will need
> to brush up on the BDB support, and that pretty quick.

What about the patents InnoDB might hold? It would be easier to enforce
a patent based on the fact that they are using code actually developed
by the patent holder.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

On 10/8/2005 12:13 PM, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> Jan Wieck wrote:
>> To have a really good position when talking to Oracle, MySQL will need
>> to brush up on the BDB support, and that pretty quick.
>
> What about the patents InnoDB might hold? It would be easier to enforce
> a patent based on the fact that they are using code actually developed
> by the patent holder.

That too.

What strikes me a little odd is how brief the responses from the MySQL
side are. Marten Mickos welcomes them, does some 2 sentence handwaving
about licensing and the glorious freedom of open source, and then the
rest of the statement is the usual blah blah about MySQL that you find
in every other press release.

It almost seems as if MySQL wasn't exactly prepared for this deal to
come through - or worse, that they are surprised about it. Although I
can't believe they wouldn't have known about it in advance.

Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com #

Hi

That is terrific news being a former employee of MySQL - Oracle buys
Innobase. I was never a fan of MySQL, personally but when Marten Mikos and
the rest of the business wonks joined the Company I knew then it was time
to get out. I met the author of Innobase once at the first MySQL employees
meeting. I was asked what for an opinion on Heikki Tuuri. I came straight
to point and told Monty and David (Axmark) that Heikki Tuuri can not be
trusted. It seems I was right. Mr Tuuri has no interest in supporting the
OS commumity. His only interest is in making money. My gut feeling now is
that eventually Oracle will buy off Innobase lock stock and barell Then
Innonbase will get consigned to File 13. I now see MySQL heading for a long
slow death; it couldn't happen to a nicer group of people :) Thank God for
PostreSQL

At 18:42 08/10/2005, Jan Wieck wrote:
>On 10/8/2005 12:13 PM, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
>>Jan Wieck wrote:
>>>To have a really good position when talking to Oracle, MySQL will need
>>>to brush up on the BDB support, and that pretty quick.
>>What about the patents InnoDB might hold? It would be easier to enforce
>>a patent based on the fact that they are using code actually developed
>>by the patent holder.
>
>That too.
>
>What strikes me a little odd is how brief the responses from the MySQL
>side are. Marten Mickos welcomes them, does some 2 sentence handwaving
>about licensing and the glorious freedom of open source, and then the rest
>of the statement is the usual blah blah about MySQL that you find in every
>other press release.
>
>It almost seems as if MySQL wasn't exactly prepared for this deal to come
>through - or worse, that they are surprised about it. Although I can't
>believe they wouldn't have known about it in advance.
>
>
>Jan
>
>--
>#======================================================================#
># It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
># Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
>#================================================== JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com #
>
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>TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>

---

Regards
John Dean,
co-author of Rekall,
the only alternative
to MS Access

Jan Wieck wrote:

> To have a really good position when talking to Oracle, MySQL will need
> to brush up on the BDB support, and that pretty quick.

Maybe Oracle will buy Sleepycat too, and foreclose that option ;-)

On Sat, 8 Oct 2005, Jan Wieck wrote:

> On 10/8/2005 12:13 PM, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
>> Jan Wieck wrote:
>>> To have a really good position when talking to Oracle, MySQL will need to
>>> brush up on the BDB support, and that pretty quick.
>>
>> What about the patents InnoDB might hold? It would be easier to enforce
>> a patent based on the fact that they are using code actually developed
>> by the patent holder.
>
> That too.
>
> What strikes me a little odd is how brief the responses from the MySQL side
> are. Marten Mickos welcomes them, does some 2 sentence handwaving about
> licensing and the glorious freedom of open source, and then the rest of the
> statement is the usual blah blah about MySQL that you find in every other
> press release.
>
> It almost seems as if MySQL wasn't exactly prepared for this deal to come
> through - or worse, that they are surprised about it. Although I can't
> believe they wouldn't have known about it in advance.

Or, they knew about it and have some sort of contigency plan already in
place for when the license does expire ... ?

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy(at)hub(dot)org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

Bruce, Aly,

> > Hopefully that should make PostgreSQL shine even more. Maybe we
> > may also see some @sun.com contributers, okay that maybe wishful
> > thinking.
>
> I have seen @sun.com posters already, so it has started.

Actually, the Sun folks have been contributing indirectly for a while, and are
working on getting Solaris binary packaging organized. They're just not big
on joining mailing lists, something we need to educate them on.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com (Josh Berkus) writes:

> Bruce, Aly,
>
>> > Hopefully that should make PostgreSQL shine even more. Maybe we
>> > may also see some @sun.com contributers, okay that maybe wishful
>> > thinking.
>>
>> I have seen @sun.com posters already, so it has started.
>
> Actually, the Sun folks have been contributing indirectly for a
> while, and are working on getting Solaris binary packaging
> organized. They're just not big on joining mailing lists, something
> we need to educate them on.

I remember hearing some talk about DTRACE efforts; I hope that is
proceeding, as it has the potential to be really generally useful
(even for non-Solaris platforms).

Solaris is one of the platforms which hasn't been quite ideal for
PostgreSQL (in comparison with, say, Linux) as it prefers threading to
forking (which doubtless links to the Java thing about threading...).
Improving PostgreSQL performance on Solaris would be no bad thing, as
that would add some useful choices in view of the gradual "dying off"
of Big Iron Unix platforms (SGI comes particularly to mind, and HP
looks to have been distracted by the Itanium thing...)
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On 10/7/05, Jim C. Nasby <jnasby(at)pervasive(dot)com> wrote:
>
> http://lnk.nu/prnewswire.com/4dv.pl
> --
> Jim C. Nasby, Sr. Engineering Consultant jnasby(at)pervasive(dot)com
> Pervasive Software http://pervasive.com work: 512-231-6117
> vcard: http://jim.nasby.net/pervasive.vcf cell: 512-569-9461
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>

First thing that comes to my mind is that Oracle is setting the stage to buy
them out.

John Dean wrote:
> Hi
>
> That is terrific news being a former employee of MySQL - Oracle buys
> Innobase. I was never a fan of MySQL, personally but when Marten Mikos and
> the rest of the business wonks joined the Company I knew then it was time
> to get out. I met the author of Innobase once at the first MySQL employees
> meeting. I was asked what for an opinion on Heikki Tuuri. I came straight
> to point and told Monty and David (Axmark) that Heikki Tuuri can not be
> trusted. It seems I was right. Mr Tuuri has no interest in supporting the
> OS commumity. His only interest is in making money. My gut feeling now is
> that eventually Oracle will buy off Innobase lock stock and barell Then
> Innonbase will get consigned to File 13. I now see MySQL heading for a long
> slow death; it couldn't happen to a nicer group of people :) Thank God for
> PostreSQL

Though some sales folks have unusual perspectives on PostgreSQL (and to
sell MySQL it seems almost to be required) most MySQL employees have
deep respect for PostgreSQL, almost admiration. At least that has been
my experience from the MySQL employees I have met at conferences.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073