Re: get rid of psql welcome message

Around <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-01/msg00089.php> it
was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you think about
that?

Personally, I'd get rid of it all, because it gets boring after about three
uses, so that we would be at

peter(at)colt:~$ psql testdb
testdb=#

The version mismatch warning would remain, of course.

I'd also like to get rid of the SSL notice but I'm not sure what to replace it
by. Something in the prompt perhaps?

Btw., any user could put the welcome message in his own psqlrc file via \echo
commands in case they are really attached to it.

Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Around
> <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-01/msg00089.php>
> it was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you
> think about that?
>
> Personally, I'd get rid of it all, because it gets boring after about
> three uses, so that we would be at

If we have readline installed, we could perhaps have it show the first
time you launch psql, but if there is a .psql_history file around,
don't show it?

> peter(at)colt:~$ psql testdb
> testdb=#
>
> The version mismatch warning would remain, of course.
>
> I'd also like to get rid of the SSL notice but I'm not sure what to
> replace it by. Something in the prompt perhaps?

That would work. It just has to keep being possible to quickly see if
a connection is secured.

//Magnus

Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Around <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-01/msg00089.php> it
> was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you think about
> that?
>
> Personally, I'd get rid of it all, because it gets boring after about three
> uses, so that we would be at
>
> peter(at)colt:~$ psql testdb
> testdb=#
>
> The version mismatch warning would remain, of course.
>
> I'd also like to get rid of the SSL notice but I'm not sure what to replace it
> by. Something in the prompt perhaps?
>
> Btw., any user could put the welcome message in his own psqlrc file via \echo
> commands in case they are really attached to it.
>
>

If you do this, adding psql internal variables so a prompt could be
built would be a nice way to go. For a default, perhaps nothing special
at all to flag the connection as ssl? If it matters to someone, they can
always set their prompt default to include this, set pgsslmode
appropriately, or call ensure sslinfo is installed and use it.

Is it worth promoting sslinfo into the core and adding a few new
functions to expose at least the same information (cypher, etc)? While
this isn't strictly related to what you're up to, sslinfo is a very nice
complement for arbitrary programs to confirm they are talking ssl.

On Thu, 2008-04-17 at 14:39 +0200, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Personally, I'd get rid of it all, because it gets boring after about three
> uses, so that we would be at

Many people I speak to use Postgres every 6 months or so, so changes
like this make them think its broke when its not.

I'd vote No, because personally I find software that changes for no good
reason to be boring, potentially bug causing and requires many
screenshots and HOWTOs of the software to become outdated.

I do strongly support your efforts to improve usability though but let's
keep stuff that works the same.

--
Simon Riggs
2ndQuadrant http://www.2ndQuadrant.com

* Peter Eisentraut (peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net) wrote:
> Around <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-01/msg00089.php> it
> was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you think about
> that?

I'd recommend an option in .psqlrc to disable it, if possible. That
would be in line with what alot of other "splash-screen" type things do.

Thanks,

Stephen

Am I missing something..

$ psql -q testdb
testdb=#

And - if you're using bash - you could just

$ alias "psql=psql -q"
$ psql testdb
testdb=#

On Thursday 17 April 2008 13:39:43 Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Around <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-01/msg00089.php>
> it was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you think
> about that?
>
> Personally, I'd get rid of it all, because it gets boring after about three
> uses, so that we would be at
>
> peter(at)colt:~$ psql testdb
> testdb=#
>
> The version mismatch warning would remain, of course.
>
> I'd also like to get rid of the SSL notice but I'm not sure what to replace
> it by. Something in the prompt perhaps?
>
> Btw., any user could put the welcome message in his own psqlrc file via
> \echo commands in case they are really attached to it.

--
Mike Aubury

Aubit Computing Ltd is registered in England and Wales, Number: 3112827
Registered Address : Clayton House,59 Piccadilly,Manchester,M1 2AQ

am Thu, dem 17.04.2008, um 14:39:43 +0200 mailte Peter Eisentraut folgendes:
> Around <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-01/msg00089.php> it
> was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you think about
> that?
>
> Personally, I'd get rid of it all, because it gets boring after about three
> uses, so that we would be at
>
> peter(at)colt:~$ psql testdb
> testdb=#

I'd vote No, because i see very often on #irc people asking something
like 'how can i see the table definition' or other, and in this cases
it's easy to say: hey dude, read the fine welcome message *g*

Okay, maybe a new switch on the command-line or a .psqlrc-parameter to
suppress this message...

Regards, Andreas
--
Andreas Kretschmer
Kontakt: Heynitz: 035242/47150, D1: 0160/7141639 (mehr: -> Header)
GnuPG-ID: 0x3FFF606C, privat 0x7F4584DA http://wwwkeys.de.pgp.net

Mike Aubury wrote:
> Am I missing something..
>
> $ psql -q testdb
> testdb=#

This also quiets out a few other unrelated things.

A. Kretschmer wrote:
> I'd vote No, because i see very often on #irc people asking something
> like 'how can i see the table definition' or other, and in this cases
> it's easy to say: hey dude, read the fine welcome message *g*

I take this as evidence that the welcome message has limited use in practice.
The recently added "help" command will probably be (minimally) more suited to
these kinds of people.

On Thu, 2008-04-17 at 09:30 -0400, Stephen Frost wrote:
> * Peter Eisentraut (peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net) wrote:
> > Around <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-01/msg00089.php> it
> > was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you think about
> > that?
>
> I'd recommend an option in .psqlrc to disable it, if possible. That
> would be in line with what alot of other "splash-screen" type things do.

+1

--
Simon Riggs
2ndQuadrant http://www.2ndQuadrant.com

Peter Eisentraut <peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net> writes:
> Around <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-01/msg00089.php> it
> was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you think about
> that?

Personally. I'm very seriously against losing the version number banner.
I could do without any of the rest of it.

regards, tom lane

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On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Tom Lane wrote:
> Peter Eisentraut writes:
> > Around it
> > was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you think about
> > that?
>
> Personally. I'm very seriously against losing the version number banner.
> I could do without any of the rest of it.
>

+1 for keeping the version number up there.

Cheers,
BJ
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Brendan Jurd wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Tom Lane wrote:
>
>> Peter Eisentraut writes:
>> > Around it
>> > was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you think about
>> > that?
>>
>> Personally. I'm very seriously against losing the version number banner.
>> I could do without any of the rest of it.
>>
>>
>
> +1 for keeping the version number up there.
>
>
>

A prompt escape for the version would actually be nice.

cheers

andrew

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:11:58 -0400
Andrew Dunstan <andrew(at)dunslane(dot)net> wrote:

>
>
> Brendan Jurd wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Tom Lane wrote:
> >
> >> Peter Eisentraut writes:
> >> > Around it
> >> > was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you
> >> > think about that?
> >>
> >> Personally. I'm very seriously against losing the version number
> >> banner. I could do without any of the rest of it.

Currently our prompt is fairly verbose:

Welcome to psql 8.1.10, the PostgreSQL interactive terminal.

Type: \copyright for distribution terms
\h for help with SQL commands
\? for help with psql commands
\g or terminate with semicolon to execute query
\q to quit

We could just do:

psql 8.1.10 - postgresql server version 8.1.10

Type: \h for SQL help, \? for psql help, \q to quit

postgres=#

--
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit

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Hash: RIPEMD160

> We could just do:
>
> psql 8.1.10 - postgresql server version 8.1.10
>
> Type: \h for SQL help, \? for psql help, \q to quit

Best idea yet. I also still like the .psqlrc no-splash
option, no reason we can't do both.

- --
Greg Sabino Mullane greg(at)turnstep(dot)com
End Point Corporation
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200804171238
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8
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=YTw/
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Simon Riggs wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-04-17 at 09:30 -0400, Stephen Frost wrote:
>> * Peter Eisentraut (peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net) wrote:
>>> Around <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-01/msg00089.php> it
>>> was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you think about
>>> that?
>> I'd recommend an option in .psqlrc to disable it, if possible. That
>> would be in line with what alot of other "splash-screen" type things do.
>
> +1
>

+1

I honestly don't care that I get a few lines of garbage as I start psql
- I never really look at it myself (the first dozen times I used pg it
was probably helpful to have the help commands there).
So what if you get a few lines of text as you start a program, it
scrolls off the screen with everything else, it doesn't fill up your
drive in log files and I doubt the 250 bytes being sent across the
network for those running remotely is going to chew up anyone's
bandwidth allocation.

I do think that an rc file option (or even a ./configure option if you
want to go that far) is fine for those in the know to adjust to their
tastes - a better option than not show it once a .psql_history exists.

--

Shane Ambler
pgSQL (at) Sheeky (dot) Biz

Get Sheeky @ http://Sheeky.Biz

sfrost(at)snowman(dot)net (Stephen Frost) writes:
> * Peter Eisentraut (peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net) wrote:
>> Around <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-01/msg00089.php> it
>> was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you think about
>> that?
>
> I'd recommend an option in .psqlrc to disable it, if possible. That
> would be in line with what alot of other "splash-screen" type things do.

Shorten:

Welcome to psql 8.1.9 (server 8.1.8), the PostgreSQL interactive terminal.

Type: \copyright for distribution terms
\h for help with SQL commands
\? for help with psql commands
\g or terminate with semicolon to execute query
\q to quit

To:

psql 8.1.9 (server 8.1.8) - PostgreSQL interactive terminal
Type: \h for SQL help, \? for psql help, \q to quit

which removes 3/4 of the "bloat," whilst only losing info about
\copyright and \g.

That's close enough to an 80% improvement for me.

That *would* be a big win in doing cut'n'paste of psql sessions, and
while the experienced user may not care about \h, \?, and \q, I'd miss
getting the version information.

There's enough room still there, by the way, that one might cleverly
add in the port number without forcing the addition of an extra line,
which could be useful material, even in a cut'n'paste...
--
(format nil "~S(at)~S" "cbbrowne" "linuxfinances.info")
http://www3.sympatico.ca/cbbrowne/spiritual.html
Editing is a rewording activity.
-- Alan J. Perlis
[And EMACS a rewording editor. Ed.]

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 15:58:10 +0200 Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Mike Aubury wrote:
> > Am I missing something..
> >
> > $ psql -q testdb
> > testdb=#
>
> This also quiets out a few other unrelated things.

Like all \timing messages *grumble*

--
Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
German PostgreSQL User Group

On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 09:30:04 -0400 Stephen Frost wrote:

> * Peter Eisentraut (peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net) wrote:
> > Around <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-01/msg00089.php> it
> > was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you think about
> > that?
>
> I'd recommend an option in .psqlrc to disable it, if possible. That
> would be in line with what alot of other "splash-screen" type things do.

As long as the default is to display the welcome message, that's ok.
Like Simon explained it would be no good if we change the default
behavior.

Kind regards

--
Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
German PostgreSQL User Group

On Thursday 17 April 2008 12:04, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 11:11:58 -0400
>
> Andrew Dunstan <andrew(at)dunslane(dot)net> wrote:
> > Brendan Jurd wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:36 AM, Tom Lane wrote:
> > >> Peter Eisentraut writes:
> > >> > Around it
> > >> > was proposed to truncate the psql welcome screen. What do you
> > >> > think about that?
> > >>
> > >> Personally. I'm very seriously against losing the version number
> > >> banner. I could do without any of the rest of it.
>
> Currently our prompt is fairly verbose:
>
> Welcome to psql 8.1.10, the PostgreSQL interactive terminal.
>
> Type: \copyright for distribution terms
> \h for help with SQL commands
> \? for help with psql commands
> \g or terminate with semicolon to execute query
> \q to quit
>
>
> We could just do:
>
> psql 8.1.10 - postgresql server version 8.1.10
>
> Type: \h for SQL help, \? for psql help, \q to quit
>
> postgres=#

I think it's getting overlooked because most people don't deal with it, but I
really think we need to keep the SSL info as is. Actually I think we ought
to keep the whole thing and just add the no-splash option for advanced users,
but barring that, the SSL info is very handy when you're working on SSL
enabled servers.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 00:21:58 -0400
Robert Treat <xzilla(at)users(dot)sourceforge(dot)net> wrote:

> > We could just do:
> >
> > psql 8.1.10 - postgresql server version 8.1.10
> >
> > Type: \h for SQL help, \? for psql help, \q to quit
> >
> > postgres=#
>
> I think it's getting overlooked because most people don't deal with
> it, but I really think we need to keep the SSL info as is. Actually
> I think we ought to keep the whole thing and just add the no-splash
> option for advanced users, but barring that, the SSL info is very
> handy when you're working on SSL enabled servers.
>

Is it enough to say "SSL: On"? Or do you want all the cert stuff?

Joshua D. Drake

--
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit

Robert Treat <xzilla(at)users(dot)sourceforge(dot)net> writes:
> I think it's getting overlooked because most people don't deal with it, but I
> really think we need to keep the SSL info as is.

Well, in general the *variable* parts of the banner were all put there
because of fairly urgent need, and I'd resist removing them. It's the
unchanging boilerplate that seems open to debate.

I'm +1 for cutting that down to a single line. I don't care one way or
the other about providing a .psqlrc option to suppress it altogether.

regards, tom lane

On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 00:42:06 -0400
Tom Lane <tgl(at)sss(dot)pgh(dot)pa(dot)us> wrote:

> I'm +1 for cutting that down to a single line. I don't care one way
> or the other about providing a .psqlrc option to suppress it
> altogether.

Peter do you want to run with this, or would you mind if I worked up a
patch?

Joshua D. Drake

--
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit

Tom Lane wrote:
> Well, in general the *variable* parts of the banner were all put there
> because of fairly urgent need, and I'd resist removing them. It's the
> unchanging boilerplate that seems open to debate.
>
> I'm +1 for cutting that down to a single line. I don't care one way or
> the other about providing a .psqlrc option to suppress it altogether.
>

It could be that even optional removal of the version number is a
foot-gun for users who perhaps carelessly lose track of which version
they are running and do something with it (such as rsync with another
server's data dir or something silly like that) expecting the wrong version.

I don't see how, if it were reduced to a single line, the indication of
version number could possibly be considered problematic under any
circumstances.

Regards,
- Naz.

On Friday 18 April 2008 00:24, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Apr 2008 00:21:58 -0400
>
> Robert Treat <xzilla(at)users(dot)sourceforge(dot)net> wrote:
> > > We could just do:
> > >
> > > psql 8.1.10 - postgresql server version 8.1.10
> > >
> > > Type: \h for SQL help, \? for psql help, \q to quit
> > >
> > > postgres=#
> >
> > I think it's getting overlooked because most people don't deal with
> > it, but I really think we need to keep the SSL info as is. Actually
> > I think we ought to keep the whole thing and just add the no-splash
> > option for advanced users, but barring that, the SSL info is very
> > handy when you're working on SSL enabled servers.
>
> Is it enough to say "SSL: On"? Or do you want all the cert stuff?
>

I want the cert stuff.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

Stephen Frost wrote:
> I'd recommend an option in .psqlrc to disable it, if possible. That
> would be in line with what alot of other "splash-screen" type things do.

I like that idea. Here is a minimal patch that allows you to put

\set WELCOME_MESSAGE none

or

\set WELCOME_MESSAGE terse

into .psqlrc. The latter keeps the version information but omits the
information about the backslash commands. I didn't change any of the message
wordings. Simon's argument that screenshots and HOWTOs would need to be
updated is not invalid.

I think everyone will find a mode they like here.

Peter Eisentraut <peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net> writes:
> I think everyone will find a mode they like here.

+1. A marginal style suggestion: if you did

var_welcome_message = GetVariable(pset.vars, "WELCOME_MESSAGE");
if (!var_welcome_message)
var_welcome_message = "";

then the subsequent tests would not need null-guards and would become
much more readable IMHO.

regards, tom lane

Tom Lane wrote:
> Peter Eisentraut <peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net> writes:
>> I think everyone will find a mode they like here.
>
> +1. A marginal style suggestion: if you did
>
> var_welcome_message = GetVariable(pset.vars, "WELCOME_MESSAGE");
> if (!var_welcome_message)
> var_welcome_message = "";
>
> then the subsequent tests would not need null-guards and would become
> much more readable IMHO.

I would like to submit a further patch that has the one line screen
(although I think it will be two), should I wait for this to be applied,
apply it myself and write my patch against the modified tree, or just
write my patch against head and let the committers figure it out?

Joshua D. Drake

"Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
> I would like to submit a further patch that has the one line screen
> (although I think it will be two),

Um, what's the point? Someone who knows enough to set WELCOME_MESSAGE
in ~/.psqlrc is unlikely to need a one-line help reminder, so I don't
see the value of offering that alternative if it isn't going to be the
default. Given that the default will stay the same, I think Peter has
covered the useful bases.

regards, tom lane

Tom Lane wrote:
> "Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
>> I would like to submit a further patch that has the one line screen
>> (although I think it will be two),
>
> Um, what's the point? Someone who knows enough to set WELCOME_MESSAGE
> in ~/.psqlrc is unlikely to need a one-line help reminder, so I don't
> see the value of offering that alternative if it isn't going to be the
> default. Given that the default will stay the same, I think Peter has
> covered the useful bases.

The information presented in the welcome screen is to verbose, but is
still useful information. It is surely a cosmetic patch but there was
support for the idea.

My thoughts are to have the initial prompt look something like this:

--
psql 8.1.10 - Server version 8.2.7 (some features may not work)

Type: \h for SQL help, \? for psql help, \q to quit

SSL: On {cert info}
--

One of the things I have found is that the more information you provide
someone, the less likely they are to read it. (Every single class I have
taught has this problem).

I think the above presentation is less bulky, provides essential
nutrients and still gets the job done.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

"Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
> My thoughts are to have the initial prompt look something like this:

So you're arguing to change the default.

regards, tom lane

Tom Lane wrote:
> "Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
>> My thoughts are to have the initial prompt look something like this:
>
> So you're arguing to change the default.

Yes. Which was part of the discussion:

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2008-04/msg01250.php
http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2008-04/msg01255.php
http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2008-04/msg01302.php
http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2008-04/msg01305.php

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> My thoughts are to have the initial prompt look something like this:
>
> --
> psql 8.1.10 - Server version 8.2.7 (some features may not work)
>
> Type: \h for SQL help, \? for psql help, \q to quit
>
> SSL: On {cert info}
> --

I think the information that you use \g or semicolon to launch a query is
surprisingly non-obvious to some users. One reason is that it doesn't always
work that way in the interactive terminals of other database systems. I
think that bit should be kept in the verbose version of the message.

Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> My thoughts are to have the initial prompt look something like this:
>>
>> --
>> psql 8.1.10 - Server version 8.2.7 (some features may not work)
>>
>> Type: \h for SQL help, \? for psql help, \q to quit
>>
>> SSL: On {cert info}
>> --
>
> I think the information that you use \g or semicolon to launch a query is
> surprisingly non-obvious to some users. One reason is that it doesn't always
> work that way in the interactive terminals of other database systems. I
> think that bit should be kept in the verbose version of the message.

Sure.

Joshua D. Drake

Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > My thoughts are to have the initial prompt look something like this:
> >
> > --
> > psql 8.1.10 - Server version 8.2.7 (some features may not work)
> >
> > Type: \h for SQL help, \? for psql help, \q to quit
> >
> > SSL: On {cert info}
> > --
>
> I think the information that you use \g or semicolon to launch a query is
> surprisingly non-obvious to some users. One reason is that it doesn't always
> work that way in the interactive terminals of other database systems. I
> think that bit should be kept in the verbose version of the message.

Agreed. \g/; is pretty basic stuff and it seems there is room on the
line.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

"Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
> Tom Lane wrote:
>> So you're arguing to change the default.

> Yes. Which was part of the discussion:

... a rejected part of the discussion, according to Peter's conclusion.

It certainly doesn't make very much sense to do it in combination with
this patch, since if the standard help text is cut to one line who's
going to bother with "terse" mode? And the "none" mode isn't much of a
feature by itself either; people who want that will most likely want -q
mode even more.

I think we should do one or the other, not both, ie either cut the
help text to one line or implement something like Peter's proposal.

regards, tom lane

Tom Lane wrote:
> Yes. Which was part of the discussion:
>
> ... a rejected part of the discussion, according to Peter's conclusion.

Obviously not to others.

>
> It certainly doesn't make very much sense to do it in combination with
> this patch, since if the standard help text is cut to one line who's
> going to bother with "terse" mode? And the "none" mode isn't much of a
> feature by itself either; people who want that will most likely want -q
> mode even more.

Peter's patch is certainly useful but this is something quite different
but affecting some of the same behavior. My idea is all about the 99% of
people that don't use a .psqlrc. Should we not provide a simpler
interface that provides succinct and need to know information just
because we added a feature to .psqlrc?

That seems odd.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> --- 326,337 ----
> printf(_("Welcome to %s %s, the PostgreSQL interactive terminal.\n\n"),
> pset.progname, PG_VERSION);
>
> ! if (!(var_welcome_message && strcmp(var_welcome_message, "terse") == 0))
> ! printf(_("Type: \\copyright for distribution terms\n"
> ! " \\h for help with SQL commands\n"
> ! " \\? for help with psql commands\n"
> ! " \\g or terminate with semicolon to execute query\n"
> ! " \\q to quit\n\n"));

Hmm, how about:

1. removing the \copyright line
2. removing \h and \? in favor of mentioning the new "help" command

So it would look like:

Type: "help" to obtain usage information
\g or terminate with semicolon to execute query
\q to quit

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>
> > --- 326,337 ----
> > printf(_("Welcome to %s %s, the PostgreSQL interactive terminal.\n\n"),
> > pset.progname, PG_VERSION);
> >
> > ! if (!(var_welcome_message && strcmp(var_welcome_message, "terse") == 0))
> > ! printf(_("Type: \\copyright for distribution terms\n"
> > ! " \\h for help with SQL commands\n"
> > ! " \\? for help with psql commands\n"
> > ! " \\g or terminate with semicolon to execute query\n"
> > ! " \\q to quit\n\n"));
>
> Hmm, how about:
>
> 1. removing the \copyright line
> 2. removing \h and \? in favor of mentioning the new "help" command
>
> So it would look like:
>
> Type: "help" to obtain usage information
> \g or terminate with semicolon to execute query
> \q to quit

I am thinking 'help' is too much indirection for users -- it just tells
them another command. How about:

\g or ';' to execute a query\n"
\? and \h for help
\q to quit

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Bruce Momjian wrote:

> I am thinking 'help' is too much indirection for users -- it just tells
> them another command. How about:
>
> \g or ';' to execute a query\n"
> \? and \h for help
> \q to quit

I have to disagree here. \h is completely counterintuitive to a "user",
let alone \?. The word "help" is about as plain as day as you can get.

Google search for the word help: 3,330,000,000
First result, help.com
Google search for the expression \h: 1,800,000,000
First result, Hydrogen

Plainly spoken, easily understandable *help* for the masses. :)

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > I am thinking 'help' is too much indirection for users -- it just tells
> > them another command. How about:
> >
> > \g or ';' to execute a query\n"
> > \? and \h for help
> > \q to quit
>
> I have to disagree here. \h is completely counterintuitive to a "user",
> let alone \?. The word "help" is about as plain as day as you can get.
>
> Google search for the word help: 3,330,000,000
> First result, help.com
> Google search for the expression \h: 1,800,000,000
> First result, Hydrogen
>
> Plainly spoken, easily understandable *help* for the masses. :)

I realize that, but my point is that when they type 'help', they don't
get help; they just get details on the help options, and then they get
help. How about:

\? for psql help, \h for SQL help
\g or ';' to execute a query
\q to quit

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Bruce Momjian wrote:

> I realize that, but my point is that when they type 'help', they don't
> get help; they just get details on the help options, and then they get
> help.

So let's improve "help", For instance with an introductory text on the
difference of psql commands and SQL commands.

> How about:
>
> \? for psql help, \h for SQL help
> \g or ';' to execute a query
> \q to quit

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > I realize that, but my point is that when they type 'help', they don't
> > get help; they just get details on the help options, and then they get
> > help.
>
> So let's improve "help", For instance with an introductory text on the
> difference of psql commands and SQL commands.

Yes, right now psql help duplicates some things already printed in the
header, like \q, so 'help' output would need adjustment.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Bruce Momjian wrote:

> I realize that, but my point is that when they type 'help', they don't
> get help; they just get details on the help options, and then they get
> help.

oh... hmpf.

> How about:
>
> \? for psql help, \h for SQL help
> \g or ';' to execute a query
> \q to quit
>

This would be more in line with our current process sure. However
something a little more radical might be cool :)

help
returns:
\g to execute query
help psql for psql help
help sql for sql help

Of course we would keep the pre-existing key sequences for those of us
that have done this for the last decade :)

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

> help
> returns:
> \g to execute query
> help psql for psql help
> help sql for sql help
>
> Of course we would keep the pre-existing key sequences for those of us
> that have done this for the last decade :)

Actually in thinking about this more... I almost thing the default
prompt should be:

-
psql version 8.2.7, server version 8.3.1 (some features may not work)
SSL: On {cert info}
Type help to get help (tab complete enabled)
-

So on the prompt they can do:

help <Tab> <tab> and it would give back:

help [sql | psql] (or something like that)

Then if they type:

help psql, they get back the current \?

If they type help sql they get back the current \h

If they don't know what they need, help is the shortest path to find
out. If they do know what they need, then we don't need everything else.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > How about:
> >
> > \? for psql help, \h for SQL help
> > \g or ';' to execute a query
> > \q to quit
> >
>
> This would be more in line with our current process sure. However
> something a little more radical might be cool :)
>
> help
> returns:
> \g to execute query
> help psql for psql help
> help sql for sql help
>
> Of course we would keep the pre-existing key sequences for those of us
> that have done this for the last decade :)

Yes, we could do that, but in our last discussion of help we didn't want
'help' to do anything but print pointers to the correct commands. We
can change, of course. ;-)

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Actually in thinking about this more... I almost thing the default
> prompt should be:
>
> -
> psql version 8.2.7, server version 8.3.1 (some features may not work)
> SSL: On {cert info}
> Type help to get help (tab complete enabled)
> -
>
> So on the prompt they can do:
>
> help <Tab> <tab> and it would give back:
>
> help [sql | psql] (or something like that)
>
> Then if they type:
>
> help psql, they get back the current \?
>
> If they type help sql they get back the current \h
>
> If they don't know what they need, help is the shortest path to find
> out. If they do know what they need, then we don't need everything else.

Does Win32 have tab completion? I am wondering if we should lose the
tab and just print:

help [sql | psql]

in the header, again assuming we want to actually have 'help' so
something. I am afraid the phrase "tab completion" is too complex for
the type of people who need help. :-)

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Actually in thinking about this more... I almost thing the default
>> prompt should be:

> Does Win32 have tab completion? I am wondering if we should lose the
> tab and just print:

I don't think it currently does but keep in mind that "most" windows
users are *not* using psql. They are using pgadmin.

>
> help [sql | psql]
>
> in the header, again assuming we want to actually have 'help' so
> something.

I am not opposed to the above but it does break conformance with what we
do now (syntatically).

> I am afraid the phrase "tab completion" is too complex for
> the type of people who need help. :-)

Yeah maybe.

Joshua D. Drake

Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:
> Yes, we could do that, but in our last discussion of help we didn't want
> 'help' to do anything but print pointers to the correct commands.

Yeah, but that discussion wasn't considering the context of shortening
or eliminating the welcome banner.

The idea of reducing the fixed banner to just "Type help for help",
and moving all the existing instructions underneath "help", seems
fairly sane to me.

regards, tom lane

Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:
> I am afraid the phrase "tab completion" is too complex for
> the type of people who need help. :-)

Agreed, especially considering that it might be disabled depending
on build and context.

I think "Type help for help." is *exactly* the right amount of detail
for the banner, and then "help" itself should tell you about the options
available.

regards, tom lane

"Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
> Peter's patch is certainly useful but this is something quite different
> but affecting some of the same behavior. My idea is all about the 99% of
> people that don't use a .psqlrc. Should we not provide a simpler
> interface that provides succinct and need to know information just
> because we added a feature to .psqlrc?

You missed my point entirely, which is that if we shorten the default
banner help to ~1 line then this .psqlrc "feature" isn't going to get
added, because it'd be useless. It's only useful given the premise that
the default output will continue to be verbose.

I'm not against shortening the banner. What I'm against is turning this
thing into a camel (a horse designed by a committee). We should take
one approach or the other one, not both.

regards, tom lane

Tom Lane wrote:
> Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:
> > I am afraid the phrase "tab completion" is too complex for
> > the type of people who need help. :-)
>
> Agreed, especially considering that it might be disabled depending
> on build and context.
>
> I think "Type help for help." is *exactly* the right amount of detail
> for the banner, and then "help" itself should tell you about the options
> available.

I am good with that.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Tom Lane wrote:

> I'm not against shortening the banner. What I'm against is turning this
> thing into a camel (a horse designed by a committee). We should take
> one approach or the other one, not both.

O.k. that makes sense. I have zero desire to take away from the work
that Peter did. However, I see less use of the .psqlrc and I find it
more likely that a shortened default banner would be beneficial. *shrug*

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
>> Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:
>>> I am afraid the phrase "tab completion" is too complex for
>>> the type of people who need help. :-)
>> Agreed, especially considering that it might be disabled depending
>> on build and context.
>>
>> I think "Type help for help." is *exactly* the right amount of detail
>> for the banner, and then "help" itself should tell you about the options
>> available.
>
> I am good with that.

O.k. so... can I work up a patch for that? Peter do you want to work up
a patch (since this started as your idea, before it was morphed?)

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Mike Aubury wrote:
> > Am I missing something..
> >
> > $ psql -q testdb
> > testdb=#
>
> This also quiets out a few other unrelated things.

OK, I looked into the details of what the quiet mode does, and it turns out
that it does exactly what I want, including dropping a few other messages I
didn't care about and was possibly going to bring up for discussion next. ;-)
So in light of that, I withdraw my patch and vote for leaving everything as
is.

On Saturday 19 April 2008 20:14, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
> > I'm not against shortening the banner. What I'm against is turning this
> > thing into a camel (a horse designed by a committee). We should take
> > one approach or the other one, not both.
>
> O.k. that makes sense. I have zero desire to take away from the work
> that Peter did. However, I see less use of the .psqlrc and I find it
> more likely that a shortened default banner would be beneficial. *shrug*
>

Maybe we should add an additional paragraph to the psql welcome message:

"You can shorten or eliminate this welcome banner by modifying your .psqlrc
file and setting the WELCOME_MESSAGE to either "terse" or "none". For more
information on the .psqlrc file and it's available options, please see the
postgresql documentation".

This would provide even more help for newbies, and encourage people to learn
about the .psqlrc file. :-)

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 14:25:36 -0400
Robert Treat <xzilla(at)users(dot)sourceforge(dot)net> wrote:

> Maybe we should add an additional paragraph to the psql welcome
> message:
>
> "You can shorten or eliminate this welcome banner by modifying
> your .psqlrc file and setting the WELCOME_MESSAGE to either "terse"
> or "none". For more information on the .psqlrc file and it's
> available options, please see the postgresql documentation".
>
> This would provide even more help for newbies, and encourage people
> to learn about the .psqlrc file. :-)
>

The will just ignore it. Its too much text. I like the help for help
idea the best. We could even add a help .psqlrc deal in there with a
hint sentence.

Joshua D. Drake

--
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
United States PostgreSQL Association: http://www.postgresql.us/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

This idea may be taking it to the extreme but I thought I'd throw it out
there anyway as everyone seems to want something different. (well there
seems to be three variants that if all were available would keep most
people happy) This may be one way to please everyone.

What if the actual welcome message can be defined in the .psqlrc ?
Something along the lines of -

WELCOME_MESSAGE="Welcome to <VERS_PSQL> - <VERS_SERVER>\n<SSL_INFO>"

(or similar with tags available that will allow predefined info to be
inserted)

I also see with this path that there could be a configure option to
specify the default welcome text, I am thinking three options would keep
most happy without adjustment in .psqlrc

--default-welcome-message=[classic|short|oneline|"custom string"]

"custom string" would match the above setting options - classic would be
the default.

This could also give the option in .psqlrc of having -

WELCOME_MESSAGE=<CLASSIC>

From there you can customise the setting to what you want and even
across all machines in the office to match company policy (so to speak)
setting default .psqlrc file for new users etc.

Along that line maybe implement a way to have default welcome message
settings per server? psql retrieves the welcome settings upon server
connection. (as in psql requests it after connection - not returned with
the initial connection request) This would be the default that is
overridden by the local .psqlrc file.

--

Shane Ambler
pgSQL (at) Sheeky (dot) Biz

Get Sheeky @ http://Sheeky.Biz

Am Montag, 21. April 2008 schrieb Shane Ambler:
> What if the actual welcome message can be defined in the .psqlrc ?
> Something along the lines of -
>
> WELCOME_MESSAGE="Welcome to <VERS_PSQL> - <VERS_SERVER>\n<SSL_INFO>"

This is basically equivalent to

\echo Welcome to psql :VERSION blah.

You can do most of this already.

Peter Eisentraut <peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net> writes:
> Am Montag, 21. April 2008 schrieb Shane Ambler:
>> What if the actual welcome message can be defined in the .psqlrc ?
>> Something along the lines of -
>>
>> WELCOME_MESSAGE="Welcome to <VERS_PSQL> - <VERS_SERVER>\n<SSL_INFO>"

> You can do most of this already.

It seems rather overdesigned anyway, considering that there's been
exactly zero field demand for a customizable banner. The only reason
the idea even came up was that Peter proposed a switchable banner as
a compromise between different desires. But I think we've pretty much
got consensus that everyone is happy with reducing the help text to
"type "help" for help", so there's really no need for customizing.

regards, tom lane