Re: 3rd RFD: comp.databases.postgresql

My only suggestion:

I don't care what you do with the newsgroups, just don't screw with the
mailing lists. If the mailing lists go away, I will be *EXTREMELY*
disappointed!

- Greg

>Hopefully someone like Russ will tell us the correct term for domains like
>microsoft.* and gnu.*. Those on the mailing lists, or in pgsql.*, visit
>news.groups to read the RFD and make your opinions and voice heard! It is
>important to shape it into something that will enhance and benfit users.
>The charter and the RFD should go through a trial by fire to make it
>excellent. Give me your criicizm, suggestions,etc. I can handle it!
>
>RFDs are generally, by tradition, discussed in news.groups. That way those
>who are interested can participate without being off-topic in the mailing
>lists and pgsql.* hierarchies. I'm trying to balance being respectfull of
>the mailing lists and pgsql.* groups by informing them of what is
>happening, but also of not filling their lists needlessly with RFD talk.
>;-)

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Net Virtual Mailing Lists wrote:

> My only suggestion:
>
> I don't care what you do with the newsgroups, just don't screw with the
> mailing lists. If the mailing lists go away, I will be *EXTREMELY*
> disappointed!

this RFD in no way affects the mailing lists, and is in no way an
'official PostgreSQL newsgruop' ... the 'official newsgroups' are the
gated ones under pgsql.* ...

>
> - Greg
>
>> Hopefully someone like Russ will tell us the correct term for domains like
>> microsoft.* and gnu.*. Those on the mailing lists, or in pgsql.*, visit
>> news.groups to read the RFD and make your opinions and voice heard! It is
>> important to shape it into something that will enhance and benfit users.
>> The charter and the RFD should go through a trial by fire to make it
>> excellent. Give me your criicizm, suggestions,etc. I can handle it!
>>
>> RFDs are generally, by tradition, discussed in news.groups. That way those
>> who are interested can participate without being off-topic in the mailing
>> lists and pgsql.* hierarchies. I'm trying to balance being respectfull of
>> the mailing lists and pgsql.* groups by informing them of what is
>> happening, but also of not filling their lists needlessly with RFD talk.
>> ;-)
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org
>

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy(at)hub(dot)org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

On 12/3/2004 1:59 PM, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

> On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Net Virtual Mailing Lists wrote:
>
>> My only suggestion:
>>
>> I don't care what you do with the newsgroups, just don't screw with the
>> mailing lists. If the mailing lists go away, I will be *EXTREMELY*
>> disappointed!
>
> this RFD in no way affects the mailing lists, and is in no way an
> 'official PostgreSQL newsgruop' ... the 'official newsgroups' are the
> gated ones under pgsql.* ...

So the current state of affairs is that we have the gated, official
pgsql.* newsgroups, and the comp.* stuff is not gated in either direction?

If that's the case, there should be a weekly/monthly reminder posting on
the comp.* side set up, pointing out that these are not official groups
and that real PostgreSQL questions are better asked somewhere else, if
the intention is to reach real developers and get real help. I don't
want to see people wasting a lot of time or getting confused because
they found the wrong newsgroups first.

Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com #

> So the current state of affairs is that we have the gated, official
> pgsql.* newsgroups, and the comp.* stuff is not gated in either direction?
>
> If that's the case, there should be a weekly/monthly reminder posting on
> the comp.* side set up, pointing out that these are not official groups
> and that real PostgreSQL questions are better asked somewhere else, if
> the intention is to reach real developers and get real help. I don't
> want to see people wasting a lot of time or getting confused because
> they found the wrong newsgroups first.

That could easily be botted :)

>
>
> Jan
>

--
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Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL

jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com ("Joshua D. Drake") wrote in
news:41B0C39E(dot)9090804(at)commandprompt(dot)com:

>
>> So the current state of affairs is that we have the gated, official
>> pgsql.* newsgroups, and the comp.* stuff is not gated in either
>> direction?

Yes.

>> If that's the case, there should be a weekly/monthly reminder posting
>> on the comp.* side set up, pointing out that these are not official
>> groups and that real PostgreSQL questions are better asked somewhere
>> else, if the intention is to reach real developers and get real help.
>> I don't want to see people wasting a lot of time or getting confused
>> because they found the wrong newsgroups first.

Why would the comp.* group be the *wrong* group? Just an additional
resource. The proponent said that he would post weekly pointers about the
pgsql.* hierarchy to the comp.* group, but expecting him to post something
negative about the comp.* group is asking too much of him. This group is
not meant to be a competing resource..it is just another channel, and
another plug for the open-source community. Stop treating it like a bad
thing.

You are insulting non-developer advanced pgsql.* users that would be using
the comp.* group by inferring that only the developers are capable of
answering questions. Do the Oracle developers, or MSsql developers
participate in the respective comp.* groups for their products? Most
probably not. Are those newsgroups extremely useful resources for users of
those products? Very much so.

> That could easily be botted :)

I am not sure if the charter would allow for bot postings. Mike Cox should
decide in advance if that should be written into the charter or not.

>
>>>If that's the case, there should be a weekly/monthly reminder posting
>>>on the comp.* side set up, pointing out that these are not official
>>>groups and that real PostgreSQL questions are better asked somewhere
>>>else, if the intention is to reach real developers and get real help.
>>>I don't want to see people wasting a lot of time or getting confused
>>>because they found the wrong newsgroups first.
>
>
> Why would the comp.* group be the *wrong* group? Just an additional
> resource.

Because it is not the officially sanctioned news group for PostgreSQL.
The pgsql.* groups are.

The proponent said that he would post weekly pointers about the
> pgsql.* hierarchy to the comp.* group, but expecting him to post something
> negative about the comp.* group is asking too much of him.

> You are insulting non-developer advanced pgsql.* users that would be using
> the comp.* group by inferring that only the developers are capable of
> answering questions. Do the Oracle developers, or MSsql developers
> participate in the respective comp.* groups for their products? Most
> probably not. Are those newsgroups extremely useful resources for users of
> those products? Very much so.

I think you are reading much more into this that needs to be. All that
is being said, is that the primary members of the community hang out in
pgsql.* . Thus, that is where you are going to find the quickest
solution to your problem. Which would be true as the primary members of
the community use the mailing list as their primary communication means.

>>That could easily be botted :)
>
>
> I am not sure if the charter would allow for bot postings. Mike Cox should
> decide in advance if that should be written into the charter or not.

O.k. then an automated post from a person ;)

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend

--
Command Prompt, Inc., home of PostgreSQL Replication, and plPHP.
Postgresql support, programming shared hosting and dedicated hosting.
+1-503-667-4564 - jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com - http://www.commandprompt.com
Mammoth PostgreSQL Replicator. Integrated Replication for PostgreSQL

On 12/3/2004 3:32 PM, Woodchuck Bill wrote:

> jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com ("Joshua D. Drake") wrote in
> news:41B0C39E(dot)9090804(at)commandprompt(dot)com:
>
>>
>>> So the current state of affairs is that we have the gated, official
>>> pgsql.* newsgroups, and the comp.* stuff is not gated in either
>>> direction?
>
> Yes.
>
>>> If that's the case, there should be a weekly/monthly reminder posting
>>> on the comp.* side set up, pointing out that these are not official
>>> groups and that real PostgreSQL questions are better asked somewhere
>>> else, if the intention is to reach real developers and get real help.
>>> I don't want to see people wasting a lot of time or getting confused
>>> because they found the wrong newsgroups first.
>
> Why would the comp.* group be the *wrong* group? Just an additional
> resource. The proponent said that he would post weekly pointers about the
> pgsql.* hierarchy to the comp.* group, but expecting him to post something
> negative about the comp.* group is asking too much of him. This group is
> not meant to be a competing resource..it is just another channel, and
> another plug for the open-source community. Stop treating it like a bad
> thing.
>
> You are insulting non-developer advanced pgsql.* users that would be using
> the comp.* group by inferring that only the developers are capable of
> answering questions. Do the Oracle developers, or MSsql developers
> participate in the respective comp.* groups for their products? Most
> probably not. Are those newsgroups extremely useful resources for users of
> those products? Very much so.

I didn't say that only developers are capable of that.

Since the mailing list to comp.databases.postgresql.general gating was
stopped over a week ago, there has been zero communication on that
newsgroup. I guess, that currently all of the developers and advanced
users are either on the mailing list or using the pgsql.* groups.

And since there are no forums at all where you have direct access to
Oracle or MSSql developers, this isn't exactly what I call a good
example. Would they still be that usefull if like in our case all
developers, experienced dba's and advanced users would be on oracle.* or
microsoft.* groups already?

So how exactly do you think that big number of non-developer advanced
PostgreSQL users will populate the comp.* groups? I don't see them there
right now, and without them the comp.* groups are the *wrong* groups
because you will not get answers to questions there.

Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com #

JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com (Jan Wieck) wrote:
> Since the mailing list to comp.databases.postgresql.general gating was
> stopped over a week ago, there has been zero communication on that
> newsgroup. I guess, that currently all of the developers and advanced
> users are either on the mailing list or using the pgsql.* groups.

But that's more or less a truism.

The main "nexus" of comp.databases.postgresql.general was the server
news.us.postgresql.org, which was also the gateway. Marc dropped
that, and more than likely sent out a cancel group request, to boot.

That rather closes off communications for this 'renegade' "Big 8"
newsgroup.
--
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"I'm not a member of any organized political party, I'm a Democrat!
-- Will Rogers

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Christopher Browne wrote:

> JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com (Jan Wieck) wrote:
>> Since the mailing list to comp.databases.postgresql.general gating was
>> stopped over a week ago, there has been zero communication on that
>> newsgroup. I guess, that currently all of the developers and advanced
>> users are either on the mailing list or using the pgsql.* groups.
>
> But that's more or less a truism.
>
> The main "nexus" of comp.databases.postgresql.general was the server
> news.us.postgresql.org, which was also the gateway. Marc dropped
> that, and more than likely sent out a cancel group request, to boot.

Nope ... I just aliased c.d.p.general to pgsql.general on our server,
nothing else ...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy(at)hub(dot)org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

scrappy(at)postgresql(dot)org ("Marc G. Fournier") wrote in
news:20041203145853(dot)V87096(at)ganymede(dot)hub(dot)org:

> On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Net Virtual Mailing Lists wrote:
>
> this RFD in no way affects the mailing lists, and is in no way an
> 'official PostgreSQL newsgruop' ... the 'official newsgroups' are the
> gated ones under pgsql.* ...
>

I am curious. Where can i learn about these 'official newsgroups'?
I can't find any information about them on www.postgresql.org.

Could it be put up some information of those groups on the websit. And also
information about the new comp.databases.postgresql when(if) it becomes
approved.

I don't remember how i learnt that they existed when i started to use them
(when they was in comp.databases.postgresql.*) and that i had to connect to
news.postgresql.org to read them. I think that i picked it up reading the
mailing list.

--
Rolf stvik

On Sat, 4 Dec 2004, Rolf Xstvik wrote:

> scrappy(at)postgresql(dot)org ("Marc G. Fournier") wrote in
> news:20041203145853(dot)V87096(at)ganymede(dot)hub(dot)org:
>
>> On Fri, 3 Dec 2004, Net Virtual Mailing Lists wrote:
>>
>> this RFD in no way affects the mailing lists, and is in no way an
>> 'official PostgreSQL newsgruop' ... the 'official newsgroups' are the
>> gated ones under pgsql.* ...
>>
>
> I am curious. Where can i learn about these 'official newsgroups'?
> I can't find any information about them on www.postgresql.org.

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-announce/2004-11/msg00011.php

I'm going to post that once a month so that new ppl know as well, so if
anyone has any revisions they'd like to submit, please do ...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy(at)hub(dot)org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

scrappy(at)postgresql(dot)org ("Marc G. Fournier") wrote in
news:20041204133056(dot)U9789(at)ganymede(dot)hub(dot)org:

> On Sat, 4 Dec 2004, Rolf Xstvik wrote:
>
>> I am curious. Where can i learn about these 'official newsgroups'?
>> I can't find any information about them on www.postgresql.org.
>
> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-announce/2004-11/msg00011.php
>
> I'm going to post that once a month so that new ppl know as well, so if
> anyone has any revisions they'd like to submit, please do ...

And this will be posted to the mailing list? (and to pgsql.*)

If i am looking for a usenet group then i don't want to read a mailing
list. And if i am a new user, how can i easily find out that pgsql.* is the
hierarchy i am looking for.

Could it be an idea to mention it on the same web page which contain
information about the mailing lists?

--
Rolf stvik