News moderation

Who is moderating news at the moment? I'm getting complainst again as
submissions aren't showing up.

We need a better system for this. Any suggestions (that don't involve
me doing it all)?

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com

On Mon, 2009-06-08 at 17:23 +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> Who is moderating news at the moment? I'm getting complainst again as
> submissions aren't showing up.
>
> We need a better system for this. Any suggestions (that don't involve
> me doing it all)?

Unfortunately it is a human thing and humans get busy. My suggestion
would be to put a call out to -general and see who might be willing to
help.

Joshua D. Drake

>
> --
> Dave Page
> EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com
>
--
PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
Consulting, Development, Support, Training
503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997

On Mon, 2009-06-08 at 17:23 +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> Who is moderating news at the moment?

I *intentionally* gave up moderating news/events/etc, since I thought
there were many people around.

If it is not the case, I will be happy to step up the plate again.
--
Devrim GÜNDÜZ, RHCE
Command Prompt - http://www.CommandPrompt.com
devrim~gunduz.org, devrim~PostgreSQL.org, devrim.gunduz~linux.org.tr
http://www.gunduz.org

I have just approved 4 news, 2 of them from Continuent, but I am not
supposed to be doing that.

2 cents.

GB.-

2009/6/8 Devrim GÜNDÜZ <devrim(at)gunduz(dot)org>:
> On Mon, 2009-06-08 at 17:23 +0100, Dave Page wrote:
>> Who is moderating news at the moment?
>
> I *intentionally* gave up moderating news/events/etc, since I thought
> there were many people around.
>
> If it is not the case, I will be happy to step up the plate again.
> --
> Devrim GÜNDÜZ, RHCE
> Command Prompt - http://www.CommandPrompt.com
> devrim~gunduz.org, devrim~PostgreSQL.org, devrim.gunduz~linux.org.tr
>                   http://www.gunduz.org
>

2009/6/8 Devrim GÜNDÜZ <devrim(at)gunduz(dot)org>:
> On Mon, 2009-06-08 at 17:23 +0100, Dave Page wrote:
>> Who is moderating news at the moment?
>
> I *intentionally* gave up moderating news/events/etc, since I thought
> there were many people around.
>
> If it is not the case, I will be happy to step up the plate again.

that would be appreciated - thank you.

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com

2009/6/8 Guido Barosio <gbarosio(at)gmail(dot)com>:
> I have just approved 4 news, 2 of them from Continuent, but I am not
> supposed to be doing that.

Thanks. Were the two from continuent the same?

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Joshua D. Drake<jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-06-08 at 17:23 +0100, Dave Page wrote:
>> Who is moderating news at the moment? I'm getting complainst again as
>> submissions aren't showing up.
>>
>> We need a better system for this. Any suggestions (that don't involve
>> me doing it all)?
>
> Unfortunately it is a human thing and humans get busy. My suggestion
> would be to put a call out to -general and see who might be willing to
> help.

I'd rather use people we know, than put out an open call and
potentially turn away people we've never heard of.

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com

No, they weren't the same.

gb.-

2009/6/8 Dave Page <dpage(at)pgadmin(dot)org>:
> 2009/6/8 Guido Barosio <gbarosio(at)gmail(dot)com>:
>> I have just approved 4 news, 2 of them from Continuent, but I am not
>> supposed to be doing that.
>
> Thanks. Were the two from continuent the same?
>
> --
> Dave Page
> EnterpriseDB UK:   http://www.enterprisedb.com
>

Do we have a matrix explaining who actually takes care of what?

gb.-

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Dave Page<dpage(at)pgadmin(dot)org> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Joshua D. Drake<jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 2009-06-08 at 17:23 +0100, Dave Page wrote:
>>> Who is moderating news at the moment? I'm getting complainst again as
>>> submissions aren't showing up.
>>>
>>> We need a better system for this. Any suggestions (that don't involve
>>> me doing it all)?
>>
>> Unfortunately it is a human thing and humans get busy. My suggestion
>> would be to put a call out to -general and see who might be willing to
>> help.
>
> I'd rather use people we know, than put out an open call and
> potentially turn away people we've never heard of.
>
>
> --
> Dave Page
> EnterpriseDB UK:   http://www.enterprisedb.com
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list (pgsql-www(at)postgresql(dot)org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www
>

On Mon, 2009-06-08 at 17:39 +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:27 PM, Joshua D. Drake<jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2009-06-08 at 17:23 +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> >> Who is moderating news at the moment? I'm getting complainst again as
> >> submissions aren't showing up.
> >>
> >> We need a better system for this. Any suggestions (that don't involve
> >> me doing it all)?
> >
> > Unfortunately it is a human thing and humans get busy. My suggestion
> > would be to put a call out to -general and see who might be willing to
> > help.
>
> I'd rather use people we know, than put out an open call and
> potentially turn away people we've never heard of.

Put out an open call with conditions:

Must be relatively active on -general or -hackers (or whatever).

You either want help or you don't. If you really want help you need to
start asking more than the current pool.

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
Consulting, Development, Support, Training
503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 6:23 PM, Dave Page<dpage(at)pgadmin(dot)org> wrote:
> Who is moderating news at the moment? I'm getting complainst again as
> submissions aren't showing up.
>
> We need a better system for this. Any suggestions (that don't involve
> me doing it all)?

I don't know what's the current workflow but here is the only method
working for us at Open Wide for project/person validation on our
forge:
- an email to the validators for each new request,
- an email to the validators as soon as the request is approved,
- a reminder email each night if there are pending requests.

This way, nobody can think that the requests have been validated by
others. It works pretty well.

--
Guillaume

Josh,

> Put out an open call with conditions:
>
> Must be relatively active on -general or -hackers (or whatever).

-1 to putting out a call on -general.

Anyone who has permission to approve news, currently, has full rights on
all of webadmin. This isn't safe with someone we barely know,
especially since we're having difficulty enforcing approval policies anyway.

I'd be up for broadening the approval pool, though, by approaching
people we *do* know who aren't on -www right now. It would be also
useful to have a nag reminder: the webadmin system could send a reminder
to this list whenever we had unapproved/unrejected items more than 3
days old.

Of course, I'm hoping with a new WWW backend, it will get easier to
approve stuff and such measures won't be necessary.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
www.pgexperts.com

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Josh Berkus<josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:

> This isn't safe with someone we barely know, especially since
> we're having difficulty enforcing approval policies anyway.
>

i could step up to be a moderator...
what are our approval policies?

--
Atentamente,
Jaime Casanova
Soporte y capacitación de PostgreSQL
Asesoría y desarrollo de sistemas
Guayaquil - Ecuador
Cel. +59387171157

> i could step up to be a moderator...
> what are our approval policies?

Yaay! A Spanish-speaker. Dave, can we get Jaime set up on wwwmaster?

Jaime:
http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/NewsEventsApproval

... although I notice that that page lacks information on approving
Professional Services. Need to draft a wiki page for that.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
www.pgexperts.com

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:41 PM, Guido Barosio<gbarosio(at)gmail(dot)com> wrote:
> Do we have a matrix explaining who actually takes care of what?

No. Want to add one to the Wiki?

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:05 PM, Josh Berkus<josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:

> I'd be up for broadening the approval pool, though, by approaching people we
> *do* know who aren't on -www right now.  It would be also useful to have a
> nag reminder: the webadmin system could send a reminder to this list
> whenever we had unapproved/unrejected items more than 3 days old.

Yeah, that seems to be the one thing we're missing that is in the
workflow that Guillaume described. I'll bung it on my todo.

> Of course, I'm hoping with a new WWW backend, it will get easier to approve
> stuff and such measures won't be necessary.

Huh? It's not exactly hard now. Open the item, check it, click the
approved checkbox and hit submit/save. It's not likely to get any
easier, without removing the need to open it - and you can't properly
moderate anything you didn't write yourself without opening it and
reading it anyway.

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Jaime
Casanova<jcasanov(at)systemguards(dot)com(dot)ec> wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Josh Berkus<josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:
>
>> This isn't safe with someone we barely know, especially since
>> we're having difficulty enforcing approval policies anyway.
>>
>
> i could step up to be a moderator...

Thanks! The admin pages are at http://wwwmaster.postgresql.org/admin/.
I'll send you login details in a private email.

Please send a subscribe request to
pgsql-slavestothewww(at)postgresql(dot)org, which is where the moderation
messages get sent.

> what are our approval policies?

http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/NewsEventsApproval

For professional services, we just need to check the company lists
PostgreSQL someplace reasonably visible on their website, for example,
on a list of software supported, or even better, on the front page :-)

For doc comments, reject all spam, questions, support requests. Save
any useful suggestions for doc improvements (which don't in themselves
add to the usefulness of the page), and approve anything potentially
useful to users.

For software listings, they must be related to PostgreSQL somehow, and
in the appropriate category.

If you're not sure about anything, please ask.

Usage of the admin website is pretty self-explanatory. If your not
sure about anything - please ask.

Thanks again!

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com

(I am a spanish speaker too!)

:)

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Josh Berkus<josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:
>
>> i could step up to be a moderator...
>> what are our approval policies?
>
> Yaay!  A Spanish-speaker.  Dave, can we get Jaime set up on wwwmaster?
>
> Jaime:
> http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/NewsEventsApproval
>
> ... although I notice that that page lacks information on approving
> Professional Services.  Need to draft a wiki page for that.
>
> --
> Josh Berkus
> PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
> www.pgexperts.com
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list (pgsql-www(at)postgresql(dot)org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www
>

Dave,

> Huh? It's not exactly hard now. Open the item, check it, click the
> approved checkbox and hit submit/save. It's not likely to get any
> easier, without removing the need to open it - and you can't properly
> moderate anything you didn't write yourself without opening it and
> reading it anyway.

Examples:

1) We have a policy that non-contributing companies only get one News
every 6 months, period. Try to search on how many announcements a
company has had in 6 months.

2) We have a policy of no minor releases or betas, *unless* it's the
first PG support by the product. Try to search on whether a particular
product has ever been announced before.

3) Try to figure out how many training events a specific company is
submitting. Or whether they've submitted duplicate listings *without*
approving and of the events first.

4) If we want to reject an item with feedback, there is no "reject with
feedback" button, let alone canned standard responses.

5) There is no way to flag an item as "please do not approve, awaiting
response from submitter" so that we can "hold" stuff while we check
something. Or while we discuss stuff on -slaves.

6) The professional services form does not have any required fields,
meaning that we have to bounce about 50% of submissions on not having
enough information.

We can work around all of the above, but it's labor-intensive. Which is
one reason why you see people dropping behind on approvals, or simply
approving everything whether it's in our policy or not.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
www.pgexperts.com

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Josh Berkus<josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:
> Dave,
>
>> Huh? It's not exactly hard now. Open the item, check it, click the
>> approved checkbox and hit submit/save. It's not likely to get any
>> easier, without removing the need to open it - and you can't properly
>> moderate anything you didn't write yourself without opening it and
>> reading it anyway.
>
> Examples:
>
> 1) We have a policy that non-contributing companies only get one News every
> 6 months, period.  Try to search on how many announcements a company has had
> in 6 months.
>
> 2) We have a policy of no minor releases or betas, *unless* it's the first
> PG support by the product.  Try to search on whether a particular product
> has ever been announced before.
>
> 3) Try to figure out how many training events a specific company is
> submitting.  Or whether they've submitted duplicate listings *without*
> approving and of the events first.
>
> 4) If we want to reject an item with feedback, there is no "reject with
> feedback" button, let alone canned standard responses.
>
> 5) There is no way to flag an item as "please do not approve, awaiting
> response from submitter" so that we can "hold" stuff while we check
> something.  Or while we discuss stuff on -slaves.
>
> 6) The professional services form does not have any required fields, meaning
> that we have to bounce about 50% of submissions on not having enough
> information.
>
> We can work around all of the above, but it's labor-intensive.  Which is one
> reason why you see people dropping behind on approvals, or simply approving
> everything whether it's in our policy or not.

None of which would have been fixed in any new backend, as noone has
previously reported these issues as far as I'm aware. If people are
quitting moderating for actual technical reasons, telling us would be
most helpful. Most people will report bugs and inconveniences in
PostgreSQL quite happily, so it's a mystery why they wouldn't report
issues with processes when help run the project.

I can't honestly say any of them have caused me any real pain though.
All valid points I grant you, but minor inconveniences in my
experience.

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com

Dave,

> None of which would have been fixed in any new backend, as noone has
> previously reported these issues as far as I'm aware. If people are
> quitting moderating for actual technical reasons, telling us would be
> most helpful. Most people will report bugs and inconveniences in
> PostgreSQL quite happily, so it's a mystery why they wouldn't report
> issues with processes when help run the project.

I've mentioned several of them on -www before, some of them more than
once. I've also talked to Magnus about them. And Guido complained
about them. You just didn't listen.

> I can't honestly say any of them have caused me any real pain though.
> All valid points I grant you, but minor inconveniences in my
> experience.

Well, bluntly, that's because you're not trying to apply our policies on
frequency of posting. If one simply approves everything which has the
correct formatting, then there's no pain.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
www.pgexperts.com

On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 11:33 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:

> > I can't honestly say any of them have caused me any real pain though.
> > All valid points I grant you, but minor inconveniences in my
> > experience.
>
> Well, bluntly, that's because you're not trying to apply our policies on
> frequency of posting. If one simply approves everything which has the
> correct formatting, then there's no pain.

We could just drop news on the website all together except for .Org
related news and leave the rest to the announce list.

I don't really see the point of the news section anyway.

Joshua d. Drake

>
--
PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
Consulting, Development, Support, Training
503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Josh Berkus<josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:
> Dave,
>
>> None of which would have been fixed in any new backend, as noone has
>> previously reported these issues as far as I'm aware. If people are
>> quitting moderating for actual technical reasons, telling us would be
>> most helpful. Most people will report bugs and inconveniences in
>> PostgreSQL quite happily, so it's a mystery why they wouldn't report
>> issues with processes when help run the project.
>
> I've mentioned several of them on -www before, some of them more than once.
>  I've also talked to Magnus about them.  And Guido complained about them.
>  You just didn't listen.

I get > 200 'real' emails a day. you'll forgive me if I forget a few
here and there. I just spent 15 minutes searching the archives, and
the only issue I can find is you asking for pagination on the listing
page. Feel free to point me to other messages if you can find them.

>> I can't honestly say any of them have caused me any real pain though.
>> All valid points I grant you, but minor inconveniences in my
>> experience.
>
> Well, bluntly, that's because you're not trying to apply our policies on
> frequency of posting.  If one simply approves everything which has the
> correct formatting, then there's no pain.

Oh, aren't I? I knew I was forgetting something. All that time
agreeing the policy and then I go and ignore it.

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 7:44 PM, Joshua D. Drake<jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 11:33 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
>
>> > I can't honestly say any of them have caused me any real pain though.
>> > All valid points I grant you, but minor inconveniences in my
>> > experience.
>>
>> Well, bluntly, that's because you're not trying to apply our policies on
>> frequency of posting.  If one simply approves everything which has the
>> correct formatting, then there's no pain.
>
> We could just drop news on the website all together except for .Org
> related news and leave the rest to the announce list.
>
> I don't really see the point of the news section anyway.

It helps ensure there's something new on the front page of the website
every day or so, and gets news to those people who prefer an XML feed
to email.

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com

On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 19:56 +0100, Dave Page wrote:

> It helps ensure there's something new on the front page of the website
> every day or so, and gets news to those people who prefer an XML feed
> to email.

Right but we can get that from planet now which IMO is much more
interesting as it is generally about community, by community versus a
bunch of product announcements.

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
Consulting, Development, Support, Training
503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Joshua D. Drake<jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 19:56 +0100, Dave Page wrote:
>
>> It helps ensure there's something new on the front page of the website
>> every day or so, and gets news to those people who prefer an XML feed
>> to email.
>
> Right but we can get that from planet now which IMO is much more
> interesting as it is generally about community, by community versus a
> bunch of product announcements.

Which is exactly why the news is good as well - it shows the corporate
involvement and more formal sides of the project alongside the less
formal community side of planet.

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK: http://www.enterprisedb.com

On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 20:04 +0100, Dave Page wrote:

> > Right but we can get that from planet now which IMO is much more
> > interesting as it is generally about community, by community versus a
> > bunch of product announcements.
>
> Which is exactly why the news is good as well - it shows the corporate
> involvement and more formal sides of the project alongside the less
> formal community side of planet.

*shrug* I don't agree but I don't care that much.

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
Consulting, Development, Support, Training
503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997

On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 02:14:27PM -0500, Jaime Casanova wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Josh Berkus<josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:
>
> > This isn't safe with someone we barely know, especially since
> > we're having difficulty enforcing approval policies anyway.
> >
>
> i could step up to be a moderator...

Me, too!</aol>

Cheers,
David.
--
David Fetter <david(at)fetter(dot)org> http://fetter.org/
Phone: +1 415 235 3778 AIM: dfetter666 Yahoo!: dfetter
Skype: davidfetter XMPP: david(dot)fetter(at)gmail(dot)com

Remember to vote!
Consider donating to Postgres: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

On 6/9/09 12:09 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 20:04 +0100, Dave Page wrote:
>
>>> Right but we can get that from planet now which IMO is much more
>>> interesting as it is generally about community, by community versus a
>>> bunch of product announcements.

The content is different on the two feeds. I do agree that we should
have more stuff in News which is not product announcements; for some
reason, people running conferences, other OSS projects, etc. seem to
forget about the news feed.

However, (for example) I'm not going to announce 8.4 RC1 on the blog feed.

We would also have less product announcements if we were enforcing our
approval policies (no minor versions, for example). Current technology
makes thishard to do, as previously discussed.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
www.pgexperts.com