Re: [pgsql-www] New email list for emergency communications

[ BCC to core.]

Right now we have no way to communicate as a group if our community
email infrastructure isn't working.

Therefore, I have created an email list on my machine that can be used
for communication in such situations. It is called:

pgsql-emergency(at)momjian(dot)us

I envision this as an email list that will allow more rapid recovery
during email outages. I know many use IRC in such cases but this allows
notification. Also some don't use IRC.

Anyone can post to the email list. There is no moderation, though the
list sits behind my spam filters. The list will not be archived.

If you want to be subscribed, please email me privately. I think it is
particularly important for infrastructure managers to be subscribed to
this list.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:17:02 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:

>
> [ BCC to core.]
>
> Right now we have no way to communicate as a group if our community
> email infrastructure isn't working.

Yes there is.

jabber.postgresql.org
irc.freenode.net
direct email

Not to mention how many other services people are using with buddy
lists? :P

>
> Therefore, I have created an email list on my machine that can be used
> for communication in such situations. It is called:
>
> pgsql-emergency(at)momjian(dot)us
>
> I envision this as an email list that will allow more rapid recovery
> during email outages. I know many use IRC in such cases but this
> allows notification. Also some don't use IRC.
>

Everyone in the know uses one of:

gtalk
yahoo
irc
jabber

> If you want to be subscribed, please email me privately. I think it
> is particularly important for infrastructure managers to be
> subscribed to this list.

I would like the requirements defined by the -www and sysadmins teams.
I don't want us to go off and create yet more infrastructure without
full documentation and understanding of the purpose and whether it is
redundant.

This list is currently redundant as we have the resources and
technology already in place to deal with this. I think you are
attacking the wrong problem Bruce.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
United States PostgreSQL Association: http://www.postgresql.us/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

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Joshua D. Drake wrote:
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>
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:17:02 -0400 (EDT)
> Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
>
> >
> > [ BCC to core.]
> >
> > Right now we have no way to communicate as a group if our community
> > email infrastructure isn't working.
>
> Yes there is.
>
> jabber.postgresql.org
> irc.freenode.net
> direct email

I think we need something more centralized, and with chat you have to
know to look there for problems. I think we need something that
allows people to notify us if there is a problem.

> > If you want to be subscribed, please email me privately. I think it
> > is particularly important for infrastructure managers to be
> > subscribed to this list.
>
> I would like the requirements defined by the -www and sysadmins teams.
> I don't want us to go off and create yet more infrastructure without
> full documentation and understanding of the purpose and whether it is
> redundant.
>
> This list is currently redundant as we have the resources and
> technology already in place to deal with this. I think you are
> attacking the wrong problem Bruce.

Again, see above.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

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>
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:17:02 -0400 (EDT)
> Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
>
>>
>> [ BCC to core.]
>>
>> Right now we have no way to communicate as a group if our community
>> email infrastructure isn't working.
>
> Yes there is.
>
> jabber.postgresql.org
> irc.freenode.net
> direct email
>
> Not to mention how many other services people are using with buddy
> lists? :P
>
>>
>> Therefore, I have created an email list on my machine that can be used
>> for communication in such situations. It is called:
>>
>> pgsql-emergency(at)momjian(dot)us
>>
>> I envision this as an email list that will allow more rapid recovery
>> during email outages. I know many use IRC in such cases but this
>> allows notification. Also some don't use IRC.
>>
>
> Everyone in the know uses one of:
>
> gtalk
> yahoo
> irc
> jabber
>
>> If you want to be subscribed, please email me privately. I think it
>> is particularly important for infrastructure managers to be
>> subscribed to this list.
>
> I would like the requirements defined by the -www and sysadmins teams.
> I don't want us to go off and create yet more infrastructure without
> full documentation and understanding of the purpose and whether it is
> redundant.
>
> This list is currently redundant as we have the resources and
> technology already in place to deal with this. I think you are
> attacking the wrong problem Bruce.

For how often it happens, its worth nothing: I agree 100% with Joshua
here, but, if Bruce wants to create a list on his personal domain (which,
in itself is a failure point as it requires that *his* domain is not 100%
perfect), it doesn't mean that anyone actually has to *use* it ... I know
I never will, since there already exist faster, more reliable, contact
methods ...

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On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:36:55 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:

> I think we need something more centralized, and with chat you have to
> know to look there for problems. I think we need something that
> allows people to notify us if there is a problem.

We are attacking the wrong problem. 99% of the time we know when
there is a problem. I leave the 1% only because we aren't perfect.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
United States PostgreSQL Association: http://www.postgresql.us/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

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Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > I would like the requirements defined by the -www and sysadmins teams.
> > I don't want us to go off and create yet more infrastructure without
> > full documentation and understanding of the purpose and whether it is
> > redundant.
> >
> > This list is currently redundant as we have the resources and
> > technology already in place to deal with this. I think you are
> > attacking the wrong problem Bruce.
>
> For how often it happens, its worth nothing: I agree 100% with Joshua
> here, but, if Bruce wants to create a list on his personal domain (which,
> in itself is a failure point as it requires that *his* domain is not 100%
> perfect), it doesn't mean that anyone actually has to *use* it ... I know
> I never will, since there already exist faster, more reliable, contact
> methods ...

I think we need a more centralized contact system than we have now.
Personally when I don't get email I am unsure who to contact (because
community email is down). The email list was a method to centralize
that. The list of possible contact methods listed confirms my point.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
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> Hash: SHA1
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> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:36:55 -0400 (EDT)
> Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
>
>
> > I think we need something more centralized, and with chat you have to
> > know to look there for problems. I think we need something that
> > allows people to notify us if there is a problem.
>
> We are attacking the wrong problem. 99% of the time we know when
> there is a problem. I leave the 1% only because we aren't perfect.

Well, I certainly don't until I realize I haven't received email, nor do
I know who is working on it. Right now the emergency communication
system is ad-hock.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Bruce Momjian wrote:

> I think we need a more centralized contact system than we have now.
> Personally when I don't get email I am unsure who to contact (because
> community email is down). The email list was a method to centralize
> that. The list of possible contact methods listed confirms my point.

Perhaps you should have a jabber.postgresql.org account?

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > I think we need a more centralized contact system than we have now.
> > Personally when I don't get email I am unsure who to contact (because
> > community email is down). The email list was a method to centralize
> > that. The list of possible contact methods listed confirms my point.
>
> Perhaps you should have a jabber.postgresql.org account?

What does that do for me that my existing jabber account does not?

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:47:20 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:

> > For how often it happens, its worth nothing: I agree 100% with
> > Joshua here, but, if Bruce wants to create a list on his personal
> > domain (which, in itself is a failure point as it requires that
> > *his* domain is not 100% perfect), it doesn't mean that anyone
> > actually has to *use* it ... I know I never will, since there
> > already exist faster, more reliable, contact methods ...
>
> I think we need a more centralized contact system than we have now.
> Personally when I don't get email I am unsure who to contact (because
> community email is down). The email list was a method to centralize
> that. The list of possible contact methods listed confirms my point.

This comes back to defining teams which is already being discussed in
another thread. The people that need to be contacted are the sysadmins
team but we need to know how. Right now, the only people that know how
to get a hold of the sysadmins team, is the sysadmins team :P.

As I said previously, we are attacking the wrong problem. The problem
is not detection (although it could be improved), the problem is not
communication (see my 99% remark).

The problem is one of complexity of environment and resources to manage
that environment. This is already being addressed on the sysadmins list
and I expect that it will be resolved within 2 weeks. Does that sound
about right Marc?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
United States PostgreSQL Association: http://www.postgresql.us/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

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On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:51:19 -0300
Alvaro Herrera <alvherre(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:

> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > I think we need a more centralized contact system than we have now.
> > Personally when I don't get email I am unsure who to contact
> > (because community email is down). The email list was a method to
> > centralize that. The list of possible contact methods listed
> > confirms my point.
>
> Perhaps you should have a jabber.postgresql.org account?
>

That seems reasonable.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
United States PostgreSQL Association: http://www.postgresql.us/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

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Joshua D. Drake wrote:
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>
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:47:20 -0400 (EDT)
> Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
>
> > > For how often it happens, its worth nothing: I agree 100% with
> > > Joshua here, but, if Bruce wants to create a list on his personal
> > > domain (which, in itself is a failure point as it requires that
> > > *his* domain is not 100% perfect), it doesn't mean that anyone
> > > actually has to *use* it ... I know I never will, since there
> > > already exist faster, more reliable, contact methods ...
> >
> > I think we need a more centralized contact system than we have now.
> > Personally when I don't get email I am unsure who to contact (because
> > community email is down). The email list was a method to centralize
> > that. The list of possible contact methods listed confirms my point.
>
> This comes back to defining teams which is already being discussed in
> another thread. The people that need to be contacted are the sysadmins
> team but we need to know how. Right now, the only people that know how
> to get a hold of the sysadmins team, is the sysadmins team :P.

My big point is if the sysadmins team is hosted by the postgresql.org
domain, how do we communicate with them when postgresql.org email is
down?

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:52:25 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:

> > Perhaps you should have a jabber.postgresql.org account?
>
> What does that do for me that my existing jabber account does not?
>

Your jabber account can not talk to jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org when
there is a problem with archives. Marc should really be on it too but
besides you too, all of the sysadmins and -www team is already on it.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
United States PostgreSQL Association: http://www.postgresql.us/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

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On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:54:38 -0400 (EDT)
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:

> > This comes back to defining teams which is already being discussed
> > in another thread. The people that need to be contacted are the
> > sysadmins team but we need to know how. Right now, the only people
> > that know how to get a hold of the sysadmins team, is the sysadmins
> > team :P.
>
> My big point is if the sysadmins team is hosted by the postgresql.org
> domain, how do we communicate with them when postgresql.org email is
> down?
>

See point about jabber.

Joshua D. Drake

- --
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
United States PostgreSQL Association: http://www.postgresql.us/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

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Joshua D. Drake wrote:
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>
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 11:52:25 -0400 (EDT)
> Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
>
> > > Perhaps you should have a jabber.postgresql.org account?
> >
> > What does that do for me that my existing jabber account does not?
> >
>
> Your jabber account can not talk to jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org when
> there is a problem with archives. Marc should really be on it too but
> besides you too, all of the sysadmins and -www team is already on it.

OK, sign me up (time for another Pidgin account).

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Bruce Momjian wrote:
> [ BCC to core.]
>
> Right now we have no way to communicate as a group if our community
> email infrastructure isn't working.
>
> Therefore, I have created an email list on my machine that can be used
> for communication in such situations. It is called:
>
> pgsql-emergency(at)momjian(dot)us
>
> I envision this as an email list that will allow more rapid recovery
> during email outages. I know many use IRC in such cases but this allows
> notification. Also some don't use IRC.
>
> Anyone can post to the email list. There is no moderation, though the
> list sits behind my spam filters. The list will not be archived.
>
> If you want to be subscribed, please email me privately. I think it is
> particularly important for infrastructure managers to be subscribed to
> this list.
>

There is one for sysadmins already. Every email on sysadmins has "If the
PostgreSQL.org mailing lists are down, use the auxillary list
pgsysadmins(at)agliodbs(dot)com "

I'm nto sure if that one is synced automatically though. Josh?

//Magnus

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
>
> [ BCC to core.]
>
> Right now we have no way to communicate as a group if our community
> email infrastructure isn't working.
>
> Therefore, I have created an email list on my machine that can be used
> for communication in such situations. It is called:
>
> pgsql-emergency(at)momjian(dot)us

Thanks Bruce, but we've had such a list for a couple of years already.

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK Ltd: http://www.enterprisedb.com
PostgreSQL UK 2008 Conference: http://www.postgresql.org.uk

Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>>> I would like the requirements defined by the -www and sysadmins teams.
>>> I don't want us to go off and create yet more infrastructure without
>>> full documentation and understanding of the purpose and whether it is
>>> redundant.
>>>
>>> This list is currently redundant as we have the resources and
>>> technology already in place to deal with this. I think you are
>>> attacking the wrong problem Bruce.
>> For how often it happens, its worth nothing: I agree 100% with Joshua
>> here, but, if Bruce wants to create a list on his personal domain (which,
>> in itself is a failure point as it requires that *his* domain is not 100%
>> perfect), it doesn't mean that anyone actually has to *use* it ... I know
>> I never will, since there already exist faster, more reliable, contact
>> methods ...
>
> I think we need a more centralized contact system than we have now.
> Personally when I don't get email I am unsure who to contact (because
> community email is down). The email list was a method to centralize
> that. The list of possible contact methods listed confirms my point.

the sysadmin team already maintains a list of emergency contacts
including external email, phone numbers, alternative contacts in
addition to the what we are usually using to communicate (IM,personal
email, the lists) - not sure if we need to duplicate that ...

Stefan

Dave Page wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
> >
> > [ BCC to core.]
> >
> > Right now we have no way to communicate as a group if our community
> > email infrastructure isn't working.
> >
> > Therefore, I have created an email list on my machine that can be used
> > for communication in such situations. It is called:
> >
> > pgsql-emergency(at)momjian(dot)us
>
> Thanks Bruce, but we've had such a list for a couple of years already.

Oh, I didn't know. Email list removed.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 11:48:36AM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Well, I certainly don't until I realize I haven't received email, nor do
> I know who is working on it. Right now the emergency communication
> system is ad-hock.

So the solution you propose does not solve the problem you think you have
-- i.e. that in the event there is a failure, the community doesn't know it.

Would a health check system that updated web pages based on the monitor
status help? (Hint: I think the monitors are already in place. What we
need is some additional ways of accessing that data, I guess.)

A

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 11:57:39AM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > besides you too, all of the sysadmins and -www team is already on it.
>
> OK, sign me up (time for another Pidgin account).

You shouldn't need more than one account -- jabber should allow
authentication against any jabber server.

A

Dave,

>> pgsql-emergency(at)momjian(dot)us
>
> Thanks Bruce, but we've had such a list for a couple of years already.
>

Where is that list? I can't remember the name of it, and it's had no
traffic ...

--Josh

Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 11:48:36AM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Well, I certainly don't until I realize I haven't received email, nor do
> > I know who is working on it. Right now the emergency communication
> > system is ad-hock.
>
> So the solution you propose does not solve the problem you think you have
> -- i.e. that in the event there is a failure, the community doesn't know it.
>
> Would a health check system that updated web pages based on the monitor
> status help? (Hint: I think the monitors are already in place. What we
> need is some additional ways of accessing that data, I guess.)

Personally, I would love to get an email when the community email system
isn't working, and status while it is being worked on. I assume others
would like to as well, so I don't go reporting/contacting people when
things are already being worked on.

Right now, when email is down, I just start IM'ing people. A more
structured system would help me.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 11:57:39AM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > besides you too, all of the sysadmins and -www team is already on it.
> >
> > OK, sign me up (time for another Pidgin account).
>
> You shouldn't need more than one account -- jabber should allow
> authentication against any jabber server.

I am told our jabber system is private.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Josh Berkus wrote:
> Dave,
>
> >> pgsql-emergency(at)momjian(dot)us
> >
> > Thanks Bruce, but we've had such a list for a couple of years already.
> >
>
> Where is that list? I can't remember the name of it, and it's had no
> traffic ...

Read later in the thread. It is at agliodbs.com (your domain).

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 01:39:07PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> I am told our jabber system is private.

That's a pity. It dramatically reduces the utility of the system, and I've
yet to hear a justification for it in any installation I've seen.

A

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Josh Berkus <josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:
> Dave,
>
> >> pgsql-emergency(at)momjian(dot)us
> >
> > Thanks Bruce, but we've had such a list for a couple of years already.
> >
>
> Where is that list? I can't remember the name of it, and it's had no
> traffic ...

pgsysadmins(at)agliodbs(dot)com

And no, I don't think it's ever been used because in the event of
major problems Magnus, Stefan and I communicate via MSN, Jabber, email
or phone - and when Marc is needed and is asleep (which tends to be
the case at the time when things generally seem to go wrong), we page
him.

--
Dave Page
EnterpriseDB UK Ltd: http://www.enterprisedb.com
PostgreSQL UK 2008 Conference: http://www.postgresql.org.uk

Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 01:39:07PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > I am told our jabber system is private.
>
> That's a pity. It dramatically reduces the utility of the system, and
> I've yet to hear a justification for it in any installation I've seen.

Agreed. It would be very nice if it were a usable system for the
outside world.

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 14:54:18 -0300 Alvaro Herrera wrote:

> Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 01:39:07PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > I am told our jabber system is private.
> >
> > That's a pity. It dramatically reduces the utility of the system, and
> > I've yet to hear a justification for it in any installation I've seen.
>
> Agreed. It would be very nice if it were a usable system for the
> outside world.

Yes, i was asked more than once by ppl using a Google talk account.
Would be nice to have them added without adding another account in
pidgin.

Kind regards

--
Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum
German PostgreSQL User Group

Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Andrew Sullivan wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 11:48:36AM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>> Well, I certainly don't until I realize I haven't received email, nor do
>>> I know who is working on it. Right now the emergency communication
>>> system is ad-hock.
>> So the solution you propose does not solve the problem you think you have
>> -- i.e. that in the event there is a failure, the community doesn't know it.
>>
>> Would a health check system that updated web pages based on the monitor
>> status help? (Hint: I think the monitors are already in place. What we
>> need is some additional ways of accessing that data, I guess.)
>
> Personally, I would love to get an email when the community email system
> isn't working, and status while it is being worked on. I assume others
> would like to as well, so I don't go reporting/contacting people when
> things are already being worked on.

there is a large grey area here and things are by far not as black &
white as your are painting them - like just defining what constitutes
"community email not working" is not easy - he have a few dozends checks
on that already and you can assume that we are aware of issues usually
faster than most other people.

For the reporting/contacting stuff it seems you actually want to start
advocating a tracker/ticketing solution for the project which is an
interesting idea (note that the sysadmin team already has simple
tracker/ticket solution internally).

As for providing status updates and stuff like that - this is probably
much more than we can do(we don't have unlimited resources ...) - this
is still a community project( for 99% of the issues (because those are
either fixed very quickly or have no or no noticable effect on the
infrastructure).
For planned maintenance and reboots/updates of major infrastructure
components we are actually trying to inform in advance (but we could
certainly improve in that area)

>
> Right now, when email is down, I just start IM'ing people. A more
> structured system would help me.

Some people would say a more structured approach to patch/bug tracking
would help them (but maybe not help you) ;-)
Getting you sent the alerts too is simple to do - but the question is
more of what value that information would be for you ?

Stefan

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:31:16 +0100
"Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum" <adsmail(at)wars-nicht(dot)de> wrote:

> Yes, i was asked more than once by ppl using a Google talk account.
> Would be nice to have them added without adding another account in
> pidgin.
>

Apparently I have more work to do than anyone else :P. I have zero
desire to have people contacting me from gmail, yahoo or other such
thing. I am busy enough.

The purpose of the jabber server was to allow contributors direct
access to each other. If we open it up, that has the potential for even
more communication overload.

If we really want a public jabber server we can do that but I would
like it to be separate from the internal jabber.postgresql server. We
could then setup the public jabber server so that it can communicate
with the private jabber server.

This would allow people who want to stay off the public im channels to
stay off but still be able to communicate with those that wish to have
a public jabber.postgresql.org account.

Joshua D. Drake
--
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL SPI Liaison | SPI Director | PostgreSQL political pundit

Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:
> >
> > Right now, when email is down, I just start IM'ing people. A more
> > structured system would help me.
>
> Some people would say a more structured approach to patch/bug tracking
> would help them (but maybe not help you) ;-)
> Getting you sent the alerts too is simple to do - but the question is
> more of what value that information would be for you ?

When email was down this past week, I had no idea if the problem was
known and who was working on it. I envisioned something like the
emergency broadcast system in the USA that sends out an alerts and
allows communication to continue while community email is down.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Stefan Kaltenbrunner wrote:

[ Discussion about making infrastructure downtime more visible to people.]

> > Right now, when email is down, I just start IM'ing people. A more
> > structured system would help me.
>
> Some people would say a more structured approach to patch/bug tracking
> would help them (but maybe not help you) ;-)

[ Email moved to hackers.]

This is an interesting observation that deserves to be discussed
separately, and relates to the patch queue. Many people want to know
what is happening with the patch queue but having better reporting
doesn't seem to help much the people who are actually processing the
queue, and requires more work.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Bruce Momjian wrote:

> This is an interesting observation that deserves to be discussed
> separately, and relates to the patch queue. Many people want to know
> what is happening with the patch queue but having better reporting
> doesn't seem to help much the people who are actually processing the
> queue, and requires more work.

I'm not sure I follow. I tried last week to give some hours for patch
review. What actually happened was that I had to wade through a ton of
stuff, skipping patches that were already applied, threads that were
purely discussion but not patches, threads about earlier versions of
some patches.

I did manage to find actual patches, but I had then to resort to my own
mailbox to get the actual patch to apply and review.

Now I can't be sure whether the current commitfest is finished or there
are still patches pending review; what patches could use input from me;
what patches I could bounce to the next commitfest.

Also I don't know what patches we have for the next commitfest. I would
gladly give some time to put up a Wiki page to list the patches for the
next commitfest. Would that be helpful?

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> This would allow people who want to stay off the public im channels to
> stay off but still be able to communicate with those that wish to have
> a public jabber.postgresql.org account.

I'm not sure I follow this argument. If people don't want to be
contacted by outer people, just don't add them as contacts.

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

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On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:23:19 -0300
Alvaro Herrera <alvherre(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:

> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>
> > This would allow people who want to stay off the public im channels
> > to stay off but still be able to communicate with those that wish
> > to have a public jabber.postgresql.org account.
>
> I'm not sure I follow this argument. If people don't want to be
> contacted by outer people, just don't add them as contacts.
>

Well I could be wrong on this but my understanding is that not adding
them to contacts does not prevent them from trying to be contacted.

One of the major reasons people are fleeing yahoo messenger (and why I
dropped it years ago) is the amount of people sending me things like:

SBF18 36/24/36

I am entirely too old to be futzing with that. Not to mention I
am married and it was likely some man sending the message in the
first place. Instant messaging is a collaborative work tool for me. I
don't want to be contacted with:

Hey... your that postgresql dude aren't you?
Hey... can I ask you a quick autovacuum question, you work with Alvaro
right?
Hey... What does Devrim really look like, he sounds cute?

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --
The PostgreSQL Company since 1997: http://www.commandprompt.com/
PostgreSQL Community Conference: http://www.postgresqlconference.org/
United States PostgreSQL Association: http://www.postgresql.us/
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate

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Hi,

On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 13:36 -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Hey... What does Devrim really look like, he sounds cute?

Yes I do. :-P
--
Devrim GÜNDÜZ , RHCE
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, ODBCng - http://www.commandprompt.com/

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Well I could be wrong on this but my understanding is that not adding
> them to contacts does not prevent them from trying to be contacted.
>
> One of the major reasons people are fleeing yahoo messenger (and why I
> dropped it years ago) is the amount of people sending me things like:
>
> SBF18 36/24/36
>
> I am entirely too old to be futzing with that. Not to mention I
> am married and it was likely some man sending the message in the
> first place. Instant messaging is a collaborative work tool for me. I
> don't want to be contacted with:
>
> Hey... your that postgresql dude aren't you?
> Hey... can I ask you a quick autovacuum question, you work with Alvaro
> right?
> Hey... What does Devrim really look like, he sounds cute?

Funny, I had this exact problem with Yahoo and found the answer last
week. In Pidgin under Tools/Privacy, if I choose Yahoo, I can select
"Allow only the users on my buddy list" and that should take care of
troll IM's. Jabber also has that option. I assume all IM tools have
that option.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> One of the major reasons people are fleeing yahoo messenger (and why I
> dropped it years ago) is the amount of people sending me things like:
>
> SBF18 36/24/36

Hmm, I have no idea what these numbers mean (I can guess), but I think I
only got annoyed once via IM and then I learned to set the privacy
setting.

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > This is an interesting observation that deserves to be discussed
> > separately, and relates to the patch queue. Many people want to know
> > what is happening with the patch queue but having better reporting
> > doesn't seem to help much the people who are actually processing the
> > queue, and requires more work.
>
> I'm not sure I follow. I tried last week to give some hours for patch
> review. What actually happened was that I had to wade through a ton of
> stuff, skipping patches that were already applied, threads that were
> purely discussion but not patches, threads about earlier versions of
> some patches.

Yep, that describes the painful process well.

I have tried to stay on top of patches already applied but I am doing a
clock sweep over the queue and you probably caught a spot I was nearing.

The rest is clearly hard to digest. Ideally I could group all related
patches together, and separate the pure TODO items from the patches that
might be TODO items or might be applied. (Though I do need comments on
the pure TODO items too.)

The problem is that I know of no easy way to do that and the time to
doing it is better spent actually processing/deleting items.

> I did manage to find actual patches, but I had then to resort to my own
> mailbox to get the actual patch to apply and review.

You can download an mbox of the entire queue if that helps.

> Now I can't be sure whether the current commitfest is finished or there
> are still patches pending review; what patches could use input from me;
> what patches I could bounce to the next commitfest.
>
> Also I don't know what patches we have for the next commitfest. I would
> gladly give some time to put up a Wiki page to list the patches for the
> next commitfest. Would that be helpful?

Uh, I don't think we have any patches for the next commit fest yet.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:
>> Also I don't know what patches we have for the next commitfest. I would
>> gladly give some time to put up a Wiki page to list the patches for the
>> next commitfest. Would that be helpful?

> Uh, I don't think we have any patches for the next commit fest yet.

There are two or three items that we have decided to hold over, although
maybe it is sufficient if they are entered as TODOs.

Also, we *have* received several patches since the start of commit fest.
Somebody needs to check through them and see which are revisions of
patches already in the queue (legit material for this fest) and which
are new stuff (not so much).

regards, tom lane

Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Alvaro Herrera wrote:

> > I did manage to find actual patches, but I had then to resort to my own
> > mailbox to get the actual patch to apply and review.
>
> You can download an mbox of the entire queue if that helps.

Ah, yeah, that's what I did.

> > Also I don't know what patches we have for the next commitfest. I would
> > gladly give some time to put up a Wiki page to list the patches for the
> > next commitfest. Would that be helpful?
>
> Uh, I don't think we have any patches for the next commit fest yet.

We certainly have, for example

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-03/msg00245.php

Simon has been submitting patches as well.

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

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Just got back online ... since its so rare (as often as JD and I agree), just
want to make a slight amendment to my original ...

I think Bruce's idea has merit, just don't htink having it go through a
personal desktop is the answer ... will bring it up on the sysadmins mailing
list though ...

- --On Monday, March 24, 2008 11:47:20 -0400 Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>
wrote:

> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>> > I would like the requirements defined by the -www and sysadmins teams.
>> > I don't want us to go off and create yet more infrastructure without
>> > full documentation and understanding of the purpose and whether it is
>> > redundant.
>> >
>> > This list is currently redundant as we have the resources and
>> > technology already in place to deal with this. I think you are
>> > attacking the wrong problem Bruce.
>>
>> For how often it happens, its worth nothing: I agree 100% with Joshua
>> here, but, if Bruce wants to create a list on his personal domain (which,
>> in itself is a failure point as it requires that *his* domain is not 100%
>> perfect), it doesn't mean that anyone actually has to *use* it ... I know
>> I never will, since there already exist faster, more reliable, contact
>> methods ...
>
> I think we need a more centralized contact system than we have now.
> Personally when I don't get email I am unsure who to contact (because
> community email is down). The email list was a method to centralize
> that. The list of possible contact methods listed confirms my point.
>
> --
> Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
> EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com
>
> + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

- --
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Hosting Solutions S.A. (http://www.hub.org)
Email . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org MSN . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org
Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664
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- --On Monday, March 24, 2008 08:53:26 -0700 "Joshua D. Drake"
<jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:

> The problem is one of complexity of environment and resources to manage
> that environment. This is already being addressed on the sysadmins list
> and I expect that it will be resolved within 2 weeks. Does that sound
> about right Marc?

That is the timeline I proposed, yes ...

- --
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Hosting Solutions S.A. (http://www.hub.org)
Email . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org MSN . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org
Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664
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- --On Monday, March 24, 2008 08:57:14 -0700 "Joshua D. Drake"
<jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:

> Your jabber account can not talk to jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org when
> there is a problem with archives. Marc should really be on it too but
> besides you too, all of the sysadmins and -www team is already on it.

Let me know what I need to connect with ...

- --
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Hosting Solutions S.A. (http://www.hub.org)
Email . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org MSN . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org
Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664
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Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> Just got back online ... since its so rare (as often as JD and I agree), just
> want to make a slight amendment to my original ...
>
> I think Bruce's idea has merit, just don't htink having it go through a
> personal desktop is the answer ... will bring it up on the sysadmins mailing
> list though ...

I would rather see it hosted somewhere else but I don't like to ask
someone to set something up if I can set it up myself. If someone else
sets it up, that is even better.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Tom Lane wrote:
> Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:
> >> Also I don't know what patches we have for the next commitfest. I would
> >> gladly give some time to put up a Wiki page to list the patches for the
> >> next commitfest. Would that be helpful?
>
> > Uh, I don't think we have any patches for the next commit fest yet.
>
> There are two or three items that we have decided to hold over, although
> maybe it is sufficient if they are entered as TODOs.
>
> Also, we *have* received several patches since the start of commit fest.
> Somebody needs to check through them and see which are revisions of
> patches already in the queue (legit material for this fest) and which
> are new stuff (not so much).

New stuff, as far as I can tell, but I will recheck.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Alvaro Herrera wrote:
>
> > > I did manage to find actual patches, but I had then to resort to my own
> > > mailbox to get the actual patch to apply and review.
> >
> > You can download an mbox of the entire queue if that helps.
>
> Ah, yeah, that's what I did.
>
>
> > > Also I don't know what patches we have for the next commitfest. I would
> > > gladly give some time to put up a Wiki page to list the patches for the
> > > next commitfest. Would that be helpful?
> >
> > Uh, I don't think we have any patches for the next commit fest yet.
>
> We certainly have, for example
>
> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-patches/2008-03/msg00245.php
>
> Simon has been submitting patches as well.

I mean we haven't added any for the next one, but I could move them to
patches_hold, I guess.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Alvaro Herrera wrote:
>
> Also I don't know what patches we have for the next commitfest. I would
> gladly give some time to put up a Wiki page to list the patches for the
> next commitfest. Would that be helpful?
>
>

Yes. My experience is similar to yours. I'm not prepared to spend hours
perusing a mailbox again. We have unfortunately been badly underprepared
for this.

cheers

andrew

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- --On Monday, March 24, 2008 17:52:37 +0000 Dave Page <dpage(at)pgadmin(dot)org> wrote:

> pgsysadmins(at)agliodbs(dot)com
>
> And no, I don't think it's ever been used because in the event of
> major problems Magnus, Stefan and I communicate via MSN, Jabber, email
> or phone - and when Marc is needed and is asleep (which tends to be
> the case at the time when things generally seem to go wrong), we page
> him.

Plus, in my case, if there is a problem, chances are its affecting my personal
email too :) Paging, in my case, should always be first method of contact ..
MSN/Yahoo second (will get signed up with the jabber.postgresql.org as soon as
someone tells me how) ...

- --
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Hosting Solutions S.A. (http://www.hub.org)
Email . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org MSN . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org
Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664
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"Bruce Momjian" <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:

> Alvaro Herrera wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure I follow. I tried last week to give some hours for patch
>> review. What actually happened was that I had to wade through a ton of
>> stuff, skipping patches that were already applied, threads that were
>> purely discussion but not patches, threads about earlier versions of
>> some patches.
>
> Yep, that describes the painful process well.
>
> I have tried to stay on top of patches already applied but I am doing a
> clock sweep over the queue and you probably caught a spot I was nearing.

I've also tried to find stuff I could review and failed repeatedly. I have a
week now where I could spend a lot of time on this so I'll try again.

Am i looking at the right list though? The one I'm looking at still starts
with a patch to which Tom commented "This is superseded by a later submission"
which I think has been there since pretty much the start of the commitfest.

> You can download an mbox of the entire queue if that helps.
>>
>> Also I don't know what patches we have for the next commitfest. I would
>> gladly give some time to put up a Wiki page to list the patches for the
>> next commitfest. Would that be helpful?

I tried this once already. I dumped the first page of Bruce's queue into a
wiki page and laid it out in a column. But I wanted to add links back to the
messages in the archive and ran into a problem with that. It also would have
been a pain because Bruce's list is divided up into pages.

If we modify the archives to have a URL to go straight to a message-id and
Bruce generated a list all on one page including comments and message-ids then
I could process them all into a wiki page in a few hours.

--
Gregory Stark
EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com
Ask me about EnterpriseDB's RemoteDBA services!

Marc, apparently the signature separators on Majordomo are now broken.
I am seeing a single dash and no space:

>
> -
> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list (pgsql-www(at)postgresql(dot)org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

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Fixed ... and I think I know why (raw vs formatted config in same file) ...
when I modified the delivery_rules, it regenerated the 'formatted version' of
the config file, which is what I modified last time ... just fixed the 'raw'
formatting also, so we should be good through other mods to delivery_rules ...

- --On Monday, March 24, 2008 19:53:42 -0300 Alvaro Herrera
<alvherre(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:

>
> Marc, apparently the signature separators on Majordomo are now broken.
> I am seeing a single dash and no space:
>
>>
>> -
>> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list (pgsql-www(at)postgresql(dot)org)
>> To make changes to your subscription:
>> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www
>
>
> --
> Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
> The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

- --
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Hosting Solutions S.A. (http://www.hub.org)
Email . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org MSN . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org
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Gregory Stark <stark(at)enterprisedb(dot)com> writes:
> Am i looking at the right list though? The one I'm looking at still starts
> with a patch to which Tom commented "This is superseded by a later submission"
> which I think has been there since pretty much the start of the commitfest.

Yeah, there is still a boatload of stuff that could be removed from the
patch queue. I think that Bruce is intentionally leaving in all traffic
related to an open patch, which is okay by me as long as the obsolete
versions are properly commented. But I wish he'd get on with removing
the stuff that is marked as already committed (some in 8.3!).

> It also would have
> been a pain because Bruce's list is divided up into pages.

That's been a pain in the rear since the start. Bruce, could we combine
it into one page now that it's relatively short?

regards, tom lane

Gregory Stark wrote:
>
>
> "Bruce Momjian" <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:
>
> > Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> >>
> >> I'm not sure I follow. I tried last week to give some hours for patch
> >> review. What actually happened was that I had to wade through a ton of
> >> stuff, skipping patches that were already applied, threads that were
> >> purely discussion but not patches, threads about earlier versions of
> >> some patches.
> >
> > Yep, that describes the painful process well.
> >
> > I have tried to stay on top of patches already applied but I am doing a
> > clock sweep over the queue and you probably caught a spot I was nearing.
>
> I've also tried to find stuff I could review and failed repeatedly. I have a
> week now where I could spend a lot of time on this so I'll try again.
>
> Am i looking at the right list though? The one I'm looking at still starts
> with a patch to which Tom commented "This is superseded by a later submission"
> which I think has been there since pretty much the start of the commitfest.

Yes, those emails are kept for background material for the later patch.

> > You can download an mbox of the entire queue if that helps.
> >>
> >> Also I don't know what patches we have for the next commitfest. I would
> >> gladly give some time to put up a Wiki page to list the patches for the
> >> next commitfest. Would that be helpful?
>
> I tried this once already. I dumped the first page of Bruce's queue into a
> wiki page and laid it out in a column. But I wanted to add links back to the
> messages in the archive and ran into a problem with that. It also would have
> been a pain because Bruce's list is divided up into pages.

Yep, sorry.

> If we modify the archives to have a URL to go straight to a message-id and
> Bruce generated a list all on one page including comments and message-ids then
> I could process them all into a wiki page in a few hours.

Ideally we could have a message id link to the official archives. Off
list tell me what you want and I will generate it.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Tom Lane wrote:
> Gregory Stark <stark(at)enterprisedb(dot)com> writes:
> > Am i looking at the right list though? The one I'm looking at still starts
> > with a patch to which Tom commented "This is superseded by a later submission"
> > which I think has been there since pretty much the start of the commitfest.
>
> Yeah, there is still a boatload of stuff that could be removed from the
> patch queue. I think that Bruce is intentionally leaving in all traffic
> related to an open patch, which is okay by me as long as the obsolete
> versions are properly commented. But I wish he'd get on with removing
> the stuff that is marked as already committed (some in 8.3!).

I am doing a clock sweep through the list, and it takes a week for each
cycle.

>
> > It also would have
> > been a pain because Bruce's list is divided up into pages.
>
> That's been a pain in the rear since the start. Bruce, could we combine
> it into one page now that it's relatively short?

Sure. Done.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

"Bruce Momjian" <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:

>> I tried this once already. I dumped the first page of Bruce's queue into a
>> wiki page and laid it out in a column. But I wanted to add links back to the
>> messages in the archive and ran into a problem with that. It also would have
>> been a pain because Bruce's list is divided up into pages.
>
> Yep, sorry.
>
>> If we modify the archives to have a URL to go straight to a message-id and
>> Bruce generated a list all on one page including comments and message-ids then
>> I could process them all into a wiki page in a few hours.
>
> Ideally we could have a message id link to the official archives. Off
> list tell me what you want and I will generate it.

Well I was going to let this commit-fest go forward and then try to get what I
would want from you when a) the list is down to a manageable size and b) isn't
actively being used.

What I wanted was a page that included all comments, the message-id of each
message, the author of each message, and included everything on one page.

The other half of this was modifying the archives so that we had a URL we
could pass a message-id to. I think we all agreed that would be a wonderful
thing to have regardless of how we tackle this list anyways.

Magnus or Dave? Is there anything I can help with to get the URL to
message-ids going?

--
Gregory Stark
EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com
Ask me about EnterpriseDB's 24x7 Postgres support!

Gregory Stark wrote:
> "Bruce Momjian" <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:
>
> >> I tried this once already. I dumped the first page of Bruce's queue into a
> >> wiki page and laid it out in a column. But I wanted to add links back to the
> >> messages in the archive and ran into a problem with that. It also would have
> >> been a pain because Bruce's list is divided up into pages.
> >
> > Yep, sorry.
> >
> >> If we modify the archives to have a URL to go straight to a message-id and
> >> Bruce generated a list all on one page including comments and message-ids then
> >> I could process them all into a wiki page in a few hours.
> >
> > Ideally we could have a message id link to the official archives. Off
> > list tell me what you want and I will generate it.
>
> Well I was going to let this commit-fest go forward and then try to get what I
> would want from you when a) the list is down to a manageable size and b) isn't
> actively being used.
>
> What I wanted was a page that included all comments, the message-id of each
> message, the author of each message, and included everything on one page.

You can get the message-ids by grep'ing the mbox file, and the comments
are all:

http://js-kit.com/rss/momjian.us/msgid-*

e.g.

http://js-kit.com/rss/momjian.us/msgid-200710222037(dot)l9MKbCJZ098744(at)wwwmaster(dot)postgresql(dot)org

So, once you grep the message ids, you can just pull the comments using
the above URL with your current message-id. Is there anything else?

> The other half of this was modifying the archives so that we had a URL we
> could pass a message-id to. I think we all agreed that would be a wonderful
> thing to have regardless of how we tackle this list anyways.

Agreed.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > If we modify the archives to have a URL to go straight to a message-id and
> > Bruce generated a list all on one page including comments and message-ids then
> > I could process them all into a wiki page in a few hours.
>
> Ideally we could have a message id link to the official archives. Off
> list tell me what you want and I will generate it.

Hmm, there's the permalink stuff I mentioned via Jabber. I think you
could do this right away, and not wait until the next commitfest.

The other thing Greg is saying is to remove paginated output. You can
set mhonarc to put all messages in a single page. I'm not sure this is
such a hot idea for all users, because such a page would be humongous;
but perhaps runnning mhonarc twice is a good idea?

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

Alvaro Herrera wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > > If we modify the archives to have a URL to go straight to a message-id and
> > > Bruce generated a list all on one page including comments and message-ids then
> > > I could process them all into a wiki page in a few hours.
> >
> > Ideally we could have a message id link to the official archives. Off
> > list tell me what you want and I will generate it.
>
> Hmm, there's the permalink stuff I mentioned via Jabber. I think you
> could do this right away, and not wait until the next commitfest.
>
> The other thing Greg is saying is to remove paginated output. You can
> set mhonarc to put all messages in a single page. I'm not sure this is
> such a hot idea for all users, because such a page would be humongous;
> but perhaps runnning mhonarc twice is a good idea?

Done already --- we can always revert it.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

"Bruce Momjian" <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:

> You can get the message-ids by grep'ing the mbox file, and the comments
> are all:
>
> http://js-kit.com/rss/momjian.us/msgid-*
>
> e.g.
>
> http://js-kit.com/rss/momjian.us/msgid-200710222037(dot)l9MKbCJZ098744(at)wwwmaster(dot)postgresql(dot)org

Huh, fascinating. it's actually an RSS feed.

I can fool around with this. I should be able to snarf in the mbox and format
a wiki page with the comments from js-kit and links to the message-id.

--
Gregory Stark
EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com
Ask me about EnterpriseDB's 24x7 Postgres support!

Gregory Stark wrote:
> "Bruce Momjian" <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:
>
> > You can get the message-ids by grep'ing the mbox file, and the comments
> > are all:
> >
> > http://js-kit.com/rss/momjian.us/msgid-*
> >
> > e.g.
> >
> > http://js-kit.com/rss/momjian.us/msgid-200710222037(dot)l9MKbCJZ098744(at)wwwmaster(dot)postgresql(dot)org
>
> Huh, fascinating. it's actually an RSS feed.
>
> I can fool around with this. I should be able to snarf in the mbox and format
> a wiki page with the comments from js-kit and links to the message-id.

Alvaro reminded me that '@' can be used in a URL, just not in the host
name part, so I have converted over to using messsge-ids for permanent
URLs, e.g.:

http://momjian.us/mhonarc/patches/44DA31B1(dot)3090700(at)enterprisedb(dot)com(dot)html

I will keep the MD5 URLs too as well until this commit fest is over.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Dave,

> pgsysadmins(at)agliodbs(dot)com

Heh, I don't even remember setting this up. Better test it; I don't know
who's subscribed anymore.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 06:39:25PM -0400, Andrew Dunstan wrote:

> perusing a mailbox again. We have unfortunately been badly underprepared
> for this.

Surely that there is an emerging consensus to that effect means that it's
not as unfortunate as it might be? I seem to recall the original
announcement suggesting this was an experiment. I wouldn't expect the first
couple rounds to go without a hitch; as long as there is procedural
improvement the next time, that's a good thing, right?

A

Andrew Sullivan <ajs(at)crankycanuck(dot)ca> writes:
> On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 06:39:25PM -0400, Andrew Dunstan wrote:
>> perusing a mailbox again. We have unfortunately been badly underprepared
>> for this.

> Surely that there is an emerging consensus to that effect means that it's
> not as unfortunate as it might be? I seem to recall the original
> announcement suggesting this was an experiment. I wouldn't expect the first
> couple rounds to go without a hitch; as long as there is procedural
> improvement the next time, that's a good thing, right?

Yeah, we expected to have glitches. I think we now have a much better
idea what sort of status-tracking support we need for future fests.

regards, tom lane

Tom Lane wrote:
> Andrew Sullivan <ajs(at)crankycanuck(dot)ca> writes:
>
>> On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 06:39:25PM -0400, Andrew Dunstan wrote:
>>
>>> perusing a mailbox again. We have unfortunately been badly underprepared
>>> for this.
>>>
>
>
>> Surely that there is an emerging consensus to that effect means that it's
>> not as unfortunate as it might be? I seem to recall the original
>> announcement suggesting this was an experiment. I wouldn't expect the first
>> couple rounds to go without a hitch; as long as there is procedural
>> improvement the next time, that's a good thing, right?
>>
>
> Yeah, we expected to have glitches. I think we now have a much better
> idea what sort of status-tracking support we need for future fests.
>
>
>

Yes. I'm not meaning to whine, sorry if it comes over like that. It
looks to me like we need a sort of prep phase for a commit-fest, so the
people switching into commit-fest mode when it starts can do so with
little friction.

cheers

andrew

Andrew Dunstan wrote:
> >> Surely that there is an emerging consensus to that effect means that it's
> >> not as unfortunate as it might be? I seem to recall the original
> >> announcement suggesting this was an experiment. I wouldn't expect the first
> >> couple rounds to go without a hitch; as long as there is procedural
> >> improvement the next time, that's a good thing, right?
> >>
> >
> > Yeah, we expected to have glitches. I think we now have a much better
> > idea what sort of status-tracking support we need for future fests.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Yes. I'm not meaning to whine, sorry if it comes over like that. It
> looks to me like we need a sort of prep phase for a commit-fest, so the
> people switching into commit-fest mode when it starts can do so with
> little friction.

Yea, I think we are still learning, and polishing our tools.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

On Mon, 2008-03-24 at 12:01 -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:31:16 +0100
> "Andreas 'ads' Scherbaum" <adsmail(at)wars-nicht(dot)de> wrote:
>
> > Yes, i was asked more than once by ppl using a Google talk account.
> > Would be nice to have them added without adding another account in
> > pidgin.
> >
>
> Apparently I have more work to do than anyone else :P. I have zero
> desire to have people contacting me from gmail, yahoo or other such
> thing. I am busy enough.
>
> The purpose of the jabber server was to allow contributors direct
> access to each other. If we open it up, that has the potential for even
> more communication overload.
>
> If we really want a public jabber server we can do that but I would
> like it to be separate from the internal jabber.postgresql server. We
> could then setup the public jabber server so that it can communicate
> with the private jabber server.

If people want the public chat, why don't they just use gtalk or
whatever public service they prefer?

I don't see a reason for us to run one private and one public server. In
fact, I don't see a reason for us to run a public one at all - if we
were running that, we could just as well run nothing.

AFAIK every reasonable IM client people would use today can easily add
two jabber accounts (or more), so I don't see the problem, really.

//Magnus

On Wed, Mar 26, 2008 at 11:39:33AM +0100, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> I don't see a reason for us to run one private and one public server. In

I agree with that. The problem is that the protocol is actually designed so
that you don't need these infernal private servers.

> AFAIK every reasonable IM client people would use today can easily add
> two jabber accounts (or more), so I don't see the problem, really.

Part of the point of the Jabber protocol is to avoid having to track which
account you have to use to talk to which people. Having all these private
servers is taking us back to the days of GEnie, CompuServe, and other such
closed networks: you had to know which gateway (or series of gateways, in
the case of UUCP mail) to use in order to reach your party. Computers are
better at routing than humans.

A