Re: Using Postgres as an alias

In presentations, articles, blogs, etc. Any publicly visible spot.

Derek M. Rodner
Director, Product Strategy
EnterpriseDB Corporation
732-331-1333 office
484-252-1943 cell
www.enterprisedb.com

----- Original Message -----
From: pgsql-advocacy-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org <pgsql-advocacy-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org>
To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net>
Cc: pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org <pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org>
Sent: Wed Sep 26 14:23:50 2007
Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Using Postgres as an alias

Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > In an attempt to get "Postgres" more widely used, I propose changing
> > "PostgreSQL" to "Postgres" in the documentation when there is more
> > than one mention of "PostgreSQL" in the same paragraph.
>
> I don't see why the documentation readers should be the first victims of
> our differences about product naming. Technical documentation is the
> last place where you want to be ambiguous and inconsistent. If you
> want to introduce useless randomness, please start somewhere else.

If we agree we should mention our alias "Postgres" more, where do you
propose we do that? I suggested the documentation and FAQ. Do you have
a better idea?

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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Derek Rodner wrote:
> In presentations, articles, blogs, etc. Any publicly visible spot.

This is assuming the name of the project has changed. It hasn't. The
name of this project is PostgreSQL.

This whole thread stinks of... I couldn't get my way and change the name
outright so instead I will subvert my will through alternative means...

Bruce, with respect. Let's start with one thing at a time. We have
changed the FAQ.

The community "just" accepted the FAQ change, and now you want to start
this?

Let it lay.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

>
> Derek M. Rodner
> Director, Product Strategy
> EnterpriseDB Corporation
> 732-331-1333 office
> 484-252-1943 cell
> www.enterprisedb.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: pgsql-advocacy-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org <pgsql-advocacy-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org>
> To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net>
> Cc: pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org <pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org>
> Sent: Wed Sep 26 14:23:50 2007
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] Using Postgres as an alias
>
> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>> In an attempt to get "Postgres" more widely used, I propose changing
>>> "PostgreSQL" to "Postgres" in the documentation when there is more
>>> than one mention of "PostgreSQL" in the same paragraph.
>> I don't see why the documentation readers should be the first victims of
>> our differences about product naming. Technical documentation is the
>> last place where you want to be ambiguous and inconsistent. If you
>> want to introduce useless randomness, please start somewhere else.
>
> If we agree we should mention our alias "Postgres" more, where do you
> propose we do that? I suggested the documentation and FAQ. Do you have
> a better idea?
>

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
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Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Derek Rodner wrote:
> > In presentations, articles, blogs, etc. Any publicly visible spot.
>
> This is assuming the name of the project has changed. It hasn't. The
> name of this project is PostgreSQL.

But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
widely used.

> This whole thread stinks of... I couldn't get my way and change the name
> outright so instead I will subvert my will through alternative means...

Well, actually, I see it the opposite where you brow-beat folks until
you think they will quit. (I am not a quitter, which I think you know.)
And I certainly do think the name change will finally be made, so I
don't feel like I have to subvert anything.

I thought it would not be a controversial change because I already
stated I wanted to make the alias more visible and no one objected. Now
I have a few objections and a lot of people who think it is a good idea.

Frankly, if the alias takes hold we might not need to make the full name
change -- supressing this idea now might actually hasten the name
change.

> Bruce, with respect. Let's start with one thing at a time. We have
> changed the FAQ.

I see no reason we can't move forward with more. I certainly have the
minimal time it would take to make simplistic changes:

grep -A5 PostgreSQL *.sgml

shows me pretty much the places that need updating --- about 15 minutes.

> The community "just" accepted the FAQ change, and now you want to start
> this?
>
> Let it lay.

Again, why shut down the discussion?

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Derek Rodner wrote:
>>> In presentations, articles, blogs, etc. Any publicly visible spot.
>> This is assuming the name of the project has changed. It hasn't. The
>> name of this project is PostgreSQL.
>
> But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
> widely used.

I am unsure of the importance of this point. The name of the project is
PostgreSQL, not Postgres. If the alias doesn't get used, who cares.

>
>> This whole thread stinks of... I couldn't get my way and change the name
>> outright so instead I will subvert my will through alternative means...
>
> Well, actually, I see it the opposite where you brow-beat folks until
> you think they will quit. (I am not a quitter, which I think you know.)
> And I certainly do think the name change will finally be made, so I
> don't feel like I have to subvert anything.
>

Well at least you are honest :) but consider that (I am not a quitter,
which I think you know.)

So you and I are going to be at this *a long* time.

> I thought it would not be a controversial change because I already
> stated I wanted to make the alias more visible and no one objected. Now
> I have a few objections and a lot of people who think it is a good idea.
>

If you review the thread it appears that the equation is similar to that
of the name change... e.g; no clear majority.

> Frankly, if the alias takes hold we might not need to make the full name
> change -- supressing this idea now might actually hasten the name
> change.

>> The community "just" accepted the FAQ change, and now you want to start
>> this?
>>
>> Let it lay.
>
> Again, why shut down the discussion?

Because.. silence is not approval the longer this thread goes on, the
more likely it will only be the very few participating. Likely the few
on core that participate and the few long time contributors such as myself.

Which means, it will never end, and continue to polarize external
community and people will just give up. That isn't good.

Brow beating is not good. It is negative and counter productive. You
won't win anything, but you certainly may cause a lot of antagonism (as
may I with my alternate view).

Note that this may be worth while in the future, but all things come in
time and I don't think this is the right time.

Joshua D. Drake

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
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"Bruce Momjian" <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:

> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>
>> This whole thread stinks of... I couldn't get my way and change the name
>> outright so instead I will subvert my will through alternative means...
>
> Well, actually, I see it the opposite where you brow-beat folks until
> you think they will quit. (I am not a quitter, which I think you know.)
> And I certainly do think the name change will finally be made, so I
> don't feel like I have to subvert anything.

It does seem to be a bit unseemly to be committing changes which you proposed
and couldn't reach any consensus on. I think you need to actually convince
people that making these changes is a good idea before you start making them
on your own.

--
Gregory Stark
EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >> Derek Rodner wrote:
> >>> In presentations, articles, blogs, etc. Any publicly visible spot.
> >> This is assuming the name of the project has changed. It hasn't. The
> >> name of this project is PostgreSQL.
> >
> > But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
> > widely used.
>
> I am unsure of the importance of this point. The name of the project is
> PostgreSQL, not Postgres. If the alias doesn't get used, who cares.

It is used a lot more than the actual name, though.

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >> Derek Rodner wrote:
> >>> In presentations, articles, blogs, etc. Any publicly visible spot.
> >> This is assuming the name of the project has changed. It hasn't. The
> >> name of this project is PostgreSQL.
> >
> > But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
> > widely used.
>
> I am unsure of the importance of this point. The name of the project is
> PostgreSQL, not Postgres. If the alias doesn't get used, who cares.

Well, if no one uses the alias then there is more motivation to make an
official name change, which I thought you didn't want.

> >> This whole thread stinks of... I couldn't get my way and change the name
> >> outright so instead I will subvert my will through alternative means...
> >
> > Well, actually, I see it the opposite where you brow-beat folks until
> > you think they will quit. (I am not a quitter, which I think you know.)
> > And I certainly do think the name change will finally be made, so I
> > don't feel like I have to subvert anything.
> >
>
> Well at least you are honest :) but consider that (I am not a quitter,
> which I think you know.)
>
> So you and I are going to be at this *a long* time.

No, you will have to give up eventually. ;-) I can see which way the
wind is blowing, and I think you can too. ;-)

> > I thought it would not be a controversial change because I already
> > stated I wanted to make the alias more visible and no one objected. Now
> > I have a few objections and a lot of people who think it is a good idea.
> >
>
> If you review the thread it appears that the equation is similar to that
> of the name change... e.g; no clear majority.

Yes perhaps 3:1 or 4:1 for the alias, so yea, pretty similar.

> > Frankly, if the alias takes hold we might not need to make the full name
> > change -- supressing this idea now might actually hasten the name
> > change.
>
> >> The community "just" accepted the FAQ change, and now you want to start
> >> this?
> >>
> >> Let it lay.
> >
> > Again, why shut down the discussion?
>
> Because.. silence is not approval the longer this thread goes on, the
> more likely it will only be the very few participating. Likely the few
> on core that participate and the few long time contributors such as myself.
>
> Which means, it will never end, and continue to polarize external
> community and people will just give up. That isn't good.

Seems like people are still contributing to the discussion. I have
rarely seen things die if there are substantive ideas, which I think
this is one.

> Brow beating is not good. It is negative and counter productive. You
> won't win anything, but you certainly may cause a lot of antagonism (as
> may I with my alternate view).
>
> Note that this may be worth while in the future, but all things come in
> time and I don't think this is the right time.

I thought you thought the FAQ alias usage was OK? I also don't see
waiting as fruitful.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Gregory Stark wrote:
>
> "Bruce Momjian" <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:
>
> > Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >
> >> This whole thread stinks of... I couldn't get my way and change the name
> >> outright so instead I will subvert my will through alternative means...
> >
> > Well, actually, I see it the opposite where you brow-beat folks until
> > you think they will quit. (I am not a quitter, which I think you know.)
> > And I certainly do think the name change will finally be made, so I
> > don't feel like I have to subvert anything.
>
> It does seem to be a bit unseemly to be committing changes which you proposed
> and couldn't reach any consensus on. I think you need to actually convince
> people that making these changes is a good idea before you start making them
> on your own.

I didn't make the changes at all. I just thought the suggestion of an
actual way to make the alias more visible would be welcomed by all.
Anyway we are still discussing, but I think we have agreement on the FAQ
so I did that. If not, I will certainly revert.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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>> Note that this may be worth while in the future, but all things come in
>> time and I don't think this is the right time.
>
> I thought you thought the FAQ alias usage was OK? I also don't see
> waiting as fruitful.

Yes I am OK with the FAQ. I however do see waiting (not on the FAQ but
on the docs) as fruitful.

Joshua D. Drake

>

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
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Gregory Stark wrote:
>
> "Bruce Momjian" <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> writes:
>
> > Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >
> >> This whole thread stinks of... I couldn't get my way and change the name
> >> outright so instead I will subvert my will through alternative means...
> >
> > Well, actually, I see it the opposite where you brow-beat folks until
> > you think they will quit. (I am not a quitter, which I think you know.)
> > And I certainly do think the name change will finally be made, so I
> > don't feel like I have to subvert anything.
>
> It does seem to be a bit unseemly to be committing changes which you proposed
> and couldn't reach any consensus on. I think you need to actually convince
> people that making these changes is a good idea before you start making them
> on your own.

Oh, did you think the 'grep' was actually done in CVS? No, it was just
an example of how I would find places to change.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> >> Note that this may be worth while in the future, but all things come in
> >> time and I don't think this is the right time.
> >
> > I thought you thought the FAQ alias usage was OK? I also don't see
> > waiting as fruitful.
>
> Yes I am OK with the FAQ. I however do see waiting (not on the FAQ but
> on the docs) as fruitful.

OK, good, let's see how people feel about the FAQ changes and if it
helps.

I do think having "PostgreSQL" lots of places in the same paragraph is
kind of long-winded, so I do think additional uses of "Postgres" will
be good.

FYI, I live near Philadelphia, but everyone here calls it "Philly", and
there are even companies that use the name like "Philly Pretzel
Company", http://www.phillysoftpretzelfactory.com/pretzelstory.html. I
don't call it "Philly" when I am out of the country because few people
recognize it outside the USA. Anyway, to me it shows an alias can get
general usage without renaming the city, but I do think we should
promote the alias in a focused way.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Bruce Momjian wrote:
> But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
> widely used.

I'm not sure if this has been thought through to the end. If we make
the point that PostgreSQL can also be called Postgres, this does not
prevent anyone from calling it Postgre or any other forms that we might
not like. It might in fact make people think that it has various names
and you can call it whatever you want.

--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/

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Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>> Note that this may be worth while in the future, but all things come in
>>> time and I don't think this is the right time.
>> I thought you thought the FAQ alias usage was OK? I also don't see
>> waiting as fruitful.
>
> Yes I am OK with the FAQ. I however do see waiting (not on the FAQ but
> on the docs) as fruitful.

To follow up on this a bit. I liken this whole discussion to a beverage
I happen to enjoy. The good portion of the world knows it as Coke.
However, The "name" is Coca-Cola. All of their branding is Coca-Cola,
all of their logos etc...

However.. You will see, even on the same label:

Get a FREE Coke

Coca Cola

...

Coca Cola has been around since 1886.

What I see is this:

PostgreSQL will *always* be PostgreSQL

PostgreSQL will commonly be referred to as Postgres over time, starting
with the FAQ and general conversation.

In the long run the two will merge where the pedantic is PostgreSQL and
the common use is Postgres.

It is something however, that should not be rushed and should be done
"in due time". I feel Bruce is rushing.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
>
>
>

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=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
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Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
> > widely used.
>
> I'm not sure if this has been thought through to the end. If we make
> the point that PostgreSQL can also be called Postgres, this does not
> prevent anyone from calling it Postgre or any other forms that we might
> not like. It might in fact make people think that it has various names
> and you can call it whatever you want.

Well, they are already calling it "Postgre" without our help, so I see
us giving them a clear alternative to PostgreSQL as helping avoid
"Postgre".

But in the end, they can continue calling us whatever they want and we
can't stop them.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> However.. You will see, even on the same label:
>
> Get a FREE Coke
>
> Coca Cola
>
> ...
>
> Coca Cola has been around since 1886.
>
> What I see is this:
>
> PostgreSQL will *always* be PostgreSQL
>
> PostgreSQL will commonly be referred to as Postgres over time, starting
> with the FAQ and general conversation.
>
> In the long run the two will merge where the pedantic is PostgreSQL and
> the common use is Postgres.

I think this is definitely a possible outcome.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>> But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
>>> widely used.
>> I'm not sure if this has been thought through to the end. If we make
>> the point that PostgreSQL can also be called Postgres, this does not
>> prevent anyone from calling it Postgre or any other forms that we might
>> not like. It might in fact make people think that it has various names
>> and you can call it whatever you want.
>
> Well, they are already calling it "Postgre" without our help, so I see
> us giving them a clear alternative to PostgreSQL as helping avoid
> "Postgre".
>
> But in the end, they can continue calling us whatever they want and we
> can't stop them.

Then why are we bothering trying?

Joshua D. Drake

>

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
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Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> >> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >>> But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
> >>> widely used.
> >> I'm not sure if this has been thought through to the end. If we make
> >> the point that PostgreSQL can also be called Postgres, this does not
> >> prevent anyone from calling it Postgre or any other forms that we might
> >> not like. It might in fact make people think that it has various names
> >> and you can call it whatever you want.
> >
> > Well, they are already calling it "Postgre" without our help, so I see
> > us giving them a clear alternative to PostgreSQL as helping avoid
> > "Postgre".
> >
> > But in the end, they can continue calling us whatever they want and we
> > can't stop them.
>
> Then why are we bothering trying?

Because though we can't _stop_ them, we can certainly influence them.
Why are you asking such simplistic questions?

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

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Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>>>> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>>>> But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
>>>>> widely used.
>>>> I'm not sure if this has been thought through to the end. If we make
>>>> the point that PostgreSQL can also be called Postgres, this does not
>>>> prevent anyone from calling it Postgre or any other forms that we might
>>>> not like. It might in fact make people think that it has various names
>>>> and you can call it whatever you want.
>>> Well, they are already calling it "Postgre" without our help, so I see
>>> us giving them a clear alternative to PostgreSQL as helping avoid
>>> "Postgre".
>>>
>>> But in the end, they can continue calling us whatever they want and we
>>> can't stop them.
>> Then why are we bothering trying?
>
> Because though we can't _stop_ them, we can certainly influence them.
> Why are you asking such simplistic questions?

It seemed odd to me. You said, "we can't stop them". So it seems like an
awful lot of wasted effort to try.

Joshua D. Drake

>

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >>> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> >>>> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >>>>> But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
> >>>>> widely used.
> >>>> I'm not sure if this has been thought through to the end. If we make
> >>>> the point that PostgreSQL can also be called Postgres, this does not
> >>>> prevent anyone from calling it Postgre or any other forms that we might
> >>>> not like. It might in fact make people think that it has various names
> >>>> and you can call it whatever you want.
> >>> Well, they are already calling it "Postgre" without our help, so I see
> >>> us giving them a clear alternative to PostgreSQL as helping avoid
> >>> "Postgre".
> >>>
> >>> But in the end, they can continue calling us whatever they want and we
> >>> can't stop them.
> >> Then why are we bothering trying?
> >
> > Because though we can't _stop_ them, we can certainly influence them.
> > Why are you asking such simplistic questions?
>
> It seemed odd to me. You said, "we can't stop them". So it seems like an
> awful lot of wasted effort to try.

Not sure why you see this as fatalist. I can't _make_ many people do
much, but I can encourage them to do things, as you have seen. That's
what we are doing here to encourage the use of "Postgres".

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

I've managed to avoid this thread so far but I will say one thing and
then reexit; you guys are true and intense believers.

This is good.

Hello Bruce

I really unlike this game about change the name. If you get 100%
support then situation is simple, but you hasn't it. I use PostgreSQL,
Postgres and I doesn't any strong benefit with change of name.
Devrim's argument about renaming all packages is really strong for me.

I agree so official documentation have to use only name PostgreSQL. Is
technical documentation not articles. And again I don't see any
benefit. Currently Postgres is well know synonym for PostgreSQL and
there isn't necessary push it into documentation. Please stop it.

Regards

Pavel Stehule

2007/9/26, Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > >> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > >>> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> > >>>> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > >>>>> But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
> > >>>>> widely used.
> > >>>> I'm not sure if this has been thought through to the end. If we make
> > >>>> the point that PostgreSQL can also be called Postgres, this does not
> > >>>> prevent anyone from calling it Postgre or any other forms that we might
> > >>>> not like. It might in fact make people think that it has various names
> > >>>> and you can call it whatever you want.
> > >>> Well, they are already calling it "Postgre" without our help, so I see
> > >>> us giving them a clear alternative to PostgreSQL as helping avoid
> > >>> "Postgre".
> > >>>
> > >>> But in the end, they can continue calling us whatever they want and we
> > >>> can't stop them.
> > >> Then why are we bothering trying?
> > >
> > > Because though we can't _stop_ them, we can certainly influence them.
> > > Why are you asking such simplistic questions?
> >
> > It seemed odd to me. You said, "we can't stop them". So it seems like an
> > awful lot of wasted effort to try.
>
> Not sure why you see this as fatalist. I can't _make_ many people do
> much, but I can encourage them to do things, as you have seen. That's
> what we are doing here to encourage the use of "Postgres".
>
> --
> Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
> EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com
>
> + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
> choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
> match
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mike Ellsworth wrote:
> I've managed to avoid this thread so far but I will say one thing and
> then reexit; you guys are true and intense believers.
>
> This is good.

:)

>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
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Pavel Stehule wrote:

> I really unlike this game about change the name. If you get 100%
> support then situation is simple, but you hasn't it. I use PostgreSQL,

Not that I am particular interested in this name change (and its
accompanying debate), but asking for 100% approval on a decision in OSS
is essentially deciding to never decide on anything, ever.

regards,
Lukas

> Not that I am particular interested in this name change (and its
> accompanying debate), but asking for 100% approval on a decision in OSS
> is essentially deciding to never decide on anything, ever.

sure, but there isn't 100% support of core hackers, what is important.
I see good as compromise FAQ change, and other's steps are not
necessary, maybe contra productive - now, some weeks from beta time.

Pavel

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>
> To follow up on this a bit. I liken this whole discussion to a beverage
> I happen to enjoy. The good portion of the world knows it as Coke.
> However, The "name" is Coca-Cola. All of their branding is Coca-Cola,
> all of their logos etc...

Hardly "all" of their branding.

Their "Coke Adds Life" campaigns were among the most memorable ads ever
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/ccmphtml/colahist.html#joe
Their 2006 slogan is "The Coke Side of Life"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca-Cola_slogans

> What I see is this:
>
> PostgreSQL will *always* be PostgreSQL
> PostgreSQL will commonly be referred to as Postgres over time, starting
> with the FAQ and general conversation.
> In the long run the two will merge where the pedantic is PostgreSQL and
> the common use is Postgres.

I imagine it'll go more like HP - where a couple places on the hp.com
web site say Hewlett-Packard, but those are few and far between.

Pavel Stehule wrote:
> Currently Postgres is well know synonym for PostgreSQL and
> there isn't necessary push it into documentation. Please stop it.

Postgres may be reasonably well known synonym for readers
on these mailinglists.

But to the rest of the world - including those people who just
read the postgreSQL web site and documentation, I think
postgre is a far more frequently assumed synonym.

This documentation proposal of Bruce's is the first time
I see anything visible that might give people hints that
Postgres is preferred over Postgre.

On Wednesday 26 September 2007 18:48, Ron Mayer wrote:
> Pavel Stehule wrote:
> > Currently Postgres is well know synonym for PostgreSQL and
> > there isn't necessary push it into documentation. Please stop it.
>
> Postgres may be reasonably well known synonym for readers
> on these mailinglists.
>
> But to the rest of the world - including those people who just
> read the postgreSQL web site and documentation, I think
> postgre is a far more frequently assumed synonym.
>

See upthread information on google search terms. While not perfect, it shows
that postgre is the third most often used term, behind postgresql(1) and
postgres(2). So no, postgre is not far more frequently assumed, but it is
used commonly..

> This documentation proposal of Bruce's is the first time
> I see anything visible that might give people hints that
> Postgres is preferred over Postgre.
>

Agreed, and afaik this was never agreed upon.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} Postgre

On Wednesday 26 September 2007 17:30, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> FYI, I live near Philadelphia, but everyone here calls it "Philly", and
> there are even companies that use the name like "Philly Pretzel
> Company", http://www.phillysoftpretzelfactory.com/pretzelstory.html. I
> don't call it "Philly" when I am out of the country because few people
> recognize it outside the USA. Anyway, to me it shows an alias can get
> general usage without renaming the city, but I do think we should
> promote the alias in a focused way.

So, I took a look at the philadelphia government website, just to see how much
the philadelphia "promotes" the use of the term philly, like you want to do
with Postgres. Doing a quick search, I get the following results:
Documents 1 to 5 of 14079 matching the query "philadelphia"
Documents 1 to 5 of 772 matching the query "philly"
If my math is right (and surely you can double check that for me) that's about
1% of the use of the term philly vs philadelphia. That doesn't seem like
strong promotion.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} Postgre

On Wednesday 26 September 2007 11:35 am, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Derek Rodner wrote:
> > In presentations, articles, blogs, etc. Any publicly visible spot.
>
> This is assuming the name of the project has changed. It hasn't. The
> name of this project is PostgreSQL.
>
> This whole thread stinks of... I couldn't get my way and change the name
> outright so instead I will subvert my will through alternative means...
>
> Bruce, with respect. Let's start with one thing at a time. We have
> changed the FAQ.
>
> The community "just" accepted the FAQ change, and now you want to start
> this?
>
> Let it lay.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
My take on this is that the length of this thread indicates that the change
has already happened. I have seen this topic raised before and die after a
relatively short time (in relation to this go around ) . The fact that it
refuses to die this time is all the proof I need that Postgres is the new
name for the project. The official name may very well remain PostgreSQL, but
the user base will march on using Postgres. If you want a case study for
this, just look at the on going sagas that are the conversion to metric units
in the USA and UK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6988521.stm). Officially
imperial units are the standard in both countries with metric units existing
in parallel. The failure to make the switch is chalked up to the difficulties
it would impose (sound familiar). The reality is that as an end user I have
to use and am familiar with metric system. I understand the difficulties
inherent in change of any sort, but change happens and it is time to get out
in front of this one.
--
Adrian Klaver
aklaver(at)comcast(dot)net

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Adrian Klaver wrote:
> On Wednesday 26 September 2007 11:35 am, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Derek Rodner wrote:

> it would impose (sound familiar). The reality is that as an end user I have
> to use and am familiar with metric system. I understand the difficulties
> inherent in change of any sort, but change happens and it is time to get out
> in front of this one.

I disagree, it is not even close to time.

Joshua D. Drake

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
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Pavel Stehule wrote:
> Hello Bruce
>
> I really unlike this game about change the name. If you get 100%
> support then situation is simple, but you hasn't it. I use PostgreSQL,
> Postgres and I doesn't any strong benefit with change of name.
> Devrim's argument about renaming all packages is really strong for me.
>
> I agree so official documentation have to use only name PostgreSQL. Is
> technical documentation not articles. And again I don't see any
> benefit. Currently Postgres is well know synonym for PostgreSQL and
> there isn't necessary push it into documentation. Please stop it.

We don't require 100% agreement on anything becuase it is hard to get
anything done. We are looking for general agreement, and I think we are
trying to get there.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> Regards
>
> Pavel Stehule
>
> 2007/9/26, Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>:
> > Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > > Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > > >> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > >>> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> > > >>>> Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > >>>>> But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
> > > >>>>> widely used.
> > > >>>> I'm not sure if this has been thought through to the end. If we make
> > > >>>> the point that PostgreSQL can also be called Postgres, this does not
> > > >>>> prevent anyone from calling it Postgre or any other forms that we might
> > > >>>> not like. It might in fact make people think that it has various names
> > > >>>> and you can call it whatever you want.
> > > >>> Well, they are already calling it "Postgre" without our help, so I see
> > > >>> us giving them a clear alternative to PostgreSQL as helping avoid
> > > >>> "Postgre".
> > > >>>
> > > >>> But in the end, they can continue calling us whatever they want and we
> > > >>> can't stop them.
> > > >> Then why are we bothering trying?
> > > >
> > > > Because though we can't _stop_ them, we can certainly influence them.
> > > > Why are you asking such simplistic questions?
> > >
> > > It seemed odd to me. You said, "we can't stop them". So it seems like an
> > > awful lot of wasted effort to try.
> >
> > Not sure why you see this as fatalist. I can't _make_ many people do
> > much, but I can encourage them to do things, as you have seen. That's
> > what we are doing here to encourage the use of "Postgres".
> >
> > --
> > Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
> > EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com
> >
> > + If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to
> > choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not
> > match
> >
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>
> http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

Robert Treat wrote:
> On Wednesday 26 September 2007 17:30, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > FYI, I live near Philadelphia, but everyone here calls it "Philly", and
> > there are even companies that use the name like "Philly Pretzel
> > Company", http://www.phillysoftpretzelfactory.com/pretzelstory.html. I
> > don't call it "Philly" when I am out of the country because few people
> > recognize it outside the USA. Anyway, to me it shows an alias can get
> > general usage without renaming the city, but I do think we should
> > promote the alias in a focused way.
>
> So, I took a look at the philadelphia government website, just to see how much
> the philadelphia "promotes" the use of the term philly, like you want to do
> with Postgres. Doing a quick search, I get the following results:
> Documents 1 to 5 of 14079 matching the query "philadelphia"
> Documents 1 to 5 of 772 matching the query "philly"
> If my math is right (and surely you can double check that for me) that's about
> 1% of the use of the term philly vs philadelphia. That doesn't seem like
> strong promotion.

Agreed. "Philly" was promoted by the community itself over a long time
period. There is much more talk about the city than what exists on the
web site, of course. Who says "Philadelphia cheese steak"?

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

> FYI, I live near Philadelphia, but everyone here calls it "Philly", and
> there are even companies that use the name like "Philly Pretzel
> Company", http://www.phillysoftpretzelfactory.com/pretzelstory.html. I
> don't call it "Philly" when I am out of the country because few people
> recognize it outside the USA.

Yes, you do. You may try not to, and you may do it less, but you certainly do. Which just proves the force of habit.

/Magnus

Bruce Momjian a écrit :
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>>> Note that this may be worth while in the future, but all things come in
>>>> time and I don't think this is the right time.
>>> I thought you thought the FAQ alias usage was OK? I also don't see
>>> waiting as fruitful.
>> Yes I am OK with the FAQ. I however do see waiting (not on the FAQ but
>> on the docs) as fruitful.
>
> OK, good, let's see how people feel about the FAQ changes and if it
> helps.
>
> I do think having "PostgreSQL" lots of places in the same paragraph is
> kind of long-winded, so I do think additional uses of "Postgres" will
> be good.
>
> FYI, I live near Philadelphia, but everyone here calls it "Philly", and
> there are even companies that use the name like "Philly Pretzel
> Company", http://www.phillysoftpretzelfactory.com/pretzelstory.html. I
> don't call it "Philly" when I am out of the country because few people
> recognize it outside the USA. Anyway, to me it shows an alias can get
> general usage without renaming the city, but I do think we should
> promote the alias in a focused way.
>

I completely agree on this example. But, really, I don't think the city
hall of Philadelphia uses "Philly" on official papers. City hall
officials certainly use it on interview or things like that. But they
won't write it.

Regards.

--
Guillaume.
http://www.postgresqlfr.org
http://dalibo.com

Magnus Hagander wrote:
> > FYI, I live near Philadelphia, but everyone here calls it "Philly", and
> > there are even companies that use the name like "Philly Pretzel
> > Company", http://www.phillysoftpretzelfactory.com/pretzelstory.html. I
> > don't call it "Philly" when I am out of the country because few people
> > recognize it outside the USA.
>
> Yes, you do. You may try not to, and you may do it less, but you
> certainly do. Which just proves the force of habit.

Yea, I am sure you are right. We also say "water" strangely (Wu-der)
which confuses many people too.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

- --On Thursday, September 27, 2007 02:17:18 -0400 Bruce Momjian
<bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:

> Magnus Hagander wrote:
>> > FYI, I live near Philadelphia, but everyone here calls it "Philly", and
>> > there are even companies that use the name like "Philly Pretzel
>> > Company", http://www.phillysoftpretzelfactory.com/pretzelstory.html. I
>> > don't call it "Philly" when I am out of the country because few people
>> > recognize it outside the USA.
>>
>> Yes, you do. You may try not to, and you may do it less, but you
>> certainly do. Which just proves the force of habit.
>
> Yea, I am sure you are right. We also say "water" strangely (Wu-der)
> which confuses many people too.

The point being made is/was that although Postgres is considered as acceptable
as Philly is, PostgreSQL is the official name, and what should be used in the
*official* documentation ...

- ----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org MSN . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org
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Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> - --On Thursday, September 27, 2007 02:17:18 -0400 Bruce Momjian
> <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
>
> > Magnus Hagander wrote:
> >> > FYI, I live near Philadelphia, but everyone here calls it "Philly", and
> >> > there are even companies that use the name like "Philly Pretzel
> >> > Company", http://www.phillysoftpretzelfactory.com/pretzelstory.html. I
> >> > don't call it "Philly" when I am out of the country because few people
> >> > recognize it outside the USA.
> >>
> >> Yes, you do. You may try not to, and you may do it less, but you
> >> certainly do. Which just proves the force of habit.
> >
> > Yea, I am sure you are right. We also say "water" strangely (Wu-der)
> > which confuses many people too.
>
> The point being made is/was that although Postgres is considered as acceptable
> as Philly is, PostgreSQL is the official name, and what should be used in the
> *official* documentation ...

OK, but when how do we promote the alias? And isn't the FAQ official?
We don't have a community that lives together to promote an alias --- we
have to do it in print somehow. Have you looked at the FAQ changes.
Please do --- I think it looks fine.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

2007/9/27, Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>:
> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > - --On Thursday, September 27, 2007 02:17:18 -0400 Bruce Momjian
> > <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
> >
> > > Magnus Hagander wrote:
> > >> > FYI, I live near Philadelphia, but everyone here calls it "Philly", and
> > >> > there are even companies that use the name like "Philly Pretzel
> > >> > Company", http://www.phillysoftpretzelfactory.com/pretzelstory.html. I
> > >> > don't call it "Philly" when I am out of the country because few people
> > >> > recognize it outside the USA.
> > >>
> > >> Yes, you do. You may try not to, and you may do it less, but you
> > >> certainly do. Which just proves the force of habit.
> > >
> > > Yea, I am sure you are right. We also say "water" strangely (Wu-der)
> > > which confuses many people too.
> >
> > The point being made is/was that although Postgres is considered as acceptable
> > as Philly is, PostgreSQL is the official name, and what should be used in the
> > *official* documentation ...
>
> OK, but when how do we promote the alias? And isn't the FAQ official?
> We don't have a community that lives together to promote an alias --- we
> have to do it in print somehow. Have you looked at the FAQ changes.
> Please do --- I think it looks fine.
>
> --
FAQ isn't strict technical documentation, and there aliases arn't too
bad. Why do you thing so word Postgres needs any promoting?

Regards
Pavel

On Thu, Sep 27, 2007 at 02:17:18AM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Magnus Hagander wrote:
> > > FYI, I live near Philadelphia, but everyone here calls it "Philly", and
> > > there are even companies that use the name like "Philly Pretzel
> > > Company", http://www.phillysoftpretzelfactory.com/pretzelstory.html. I
> > > don't call it "Philly" when I am out of the country because few people
> > > recognize it outside the USA.
> >
> > Yes, you do. You may try not to, and you may do it less, but you
> > certainly do. Which just proves the force of habit.
>
> Yea, I am sure you are right. We also say "water" strangely (Wu-der)
> which confuses many people too.

Unless yuo actually spell it differently, that's a differnt thing. We're
talkign written docs now.

//Magnus

Hi,

On Thu, 2007-09-27 at 09:31 +0200, Pavel Stehule wrote:
> FAQ isn't strict technical documentation, and there aliases arn't too
> bad. Why do you thing so word Postgres needs any promoting?

+1.

Regards,
--
Devrim GÜNDÜZ
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, ODBCng - http://www.commandprompt.com/

Pavel Stehule wrote:
> FAQ isn't strict technical documentation, and there aliases arn't too
> bad. Why do you thing so word Postgres needs any promoting?

Isn't it obvious from the number of people calling it Postgre that an
acceptable short form should be promoted?

Earlier in this round of discussion it seemed that most people didn't
like seeing postgre, but we were split on an official name change to
Postgres. Doesn't it therefore make sense to leave the official name,
and just promote the acceptable short name?

/D

2007/9/27, Dave Page <dpage(at)postgresql(dot)org>:
> Pavel Stehule wrote:
> > FAQ isn't strict technical documentation, and there aliases arn't too
> > bad. Why do you thing so word Postgres needs any promoting?
>
> Isn't it obvious from the number of people calling it Postgre that an
> acceptable short form should be promoted?
>
> Earlier in this round of discussion it seemed that most people didn't
> like seeing postgre, but we were split on an official name change to
> Postgres. Doesn't it therefore make sense to leave the official name,
> and just promote the acceptable short name?

?? I am sorry, but I really don't see any sense for it. No.

Pavel

Pavel Stehule wrote:
> 2007/9/27, Dave Page <dpage(at)postgresql(dot)org>:
>> Pavel Stehule wrote:
>>> FAQ isn't strict technical documentation, and there aliases arn't too
>>> bad. Why do you thing so word Postgres needs any promoting?
>> Isn't it obvious from the number of people calling it Postgre that an
>> acceptable short form should be promoted?
>>
>> Earlier in this round of discussion it seemed that most people didn't
>> like seeing postgre, but we were split on an official name change to
>> Postgres. Doesn't it therefore make sense to leave the official name,
>> and just promote the acceptable short name?
>
> ?? I am sorry, but I really don't see any sense for it. No.

So you're in the "Don't care what people call the project" camp rather
than the "We need to change but this is the wrong way" one?

Just trying to understand your thinking on this.

/D

>
> So you're in the "Don't care what people call the project" camp rather
> than the "We need to change but this is the wrong way" one?
>
> Just trying to understand your thinking on this.
>

I have not any problem with pronunciation PostgreSQL or Postgre or
Postgres. (czech language isn't any problem with this). I can
understand, so others languages can have problem. Accepting Postgres
as official short name can good compromise. My sorted arguments:

1. PostgreSQL is good trademark now.
2. change name will do: a) problems for packagers or b)
inconsistencies between name and packages.
3. All well products has DB or SQL in name.
4. PostgreSQL is well indexed by google - change name will do worst rank

The change of name is possible, but I believe, it has to be related to
change of product (add more not SQL features (streaming database
features, etc).

Pavel

2007-09-27_01:46:08-0400 Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>:

> We don't require 100% agreement on anything becuase it is hard to get
> anything done.

100% no. A clear consensus, yes. Or maybe we should just give anyone
with an opinion on the subject CVS commit privileges and hash it out
there? I don't see any evidence in this thread that a clear majority
would prefer the use of 'Postgres' over the official name 'PostgreSQL'
in official documentation. Is 'Postgres' acceptable shorthand (like
'Philly') - yes. Has the official name changed? No. If the official
name is PostgreSQL, it should continue to be used as such, rather than
subverted in a thinly disguised naming coup.

> We are looking for general agreement, and I think we are trying to get
> there.

In chess, when you make the same move repeatedly without making any
progress, it is called a draw. The game mercifully ends. I have not
seen one person say "Oh, I understand where you are coming from now,
I've changed my mind completely!". This conversation is going nowhere
right now. Please don't bring it up again in three weeks. Bring it up
in three years maybe.

--
Ron Peterson
https://www.yellowbank.com/

With respect, Ron, the majority of people in the original conversation were
clearly in favor of a change, as Bruce has said. In this more recent thread,
the most vocal opponents have made their opinions clear, but most of the
original participants have not. This does not appear to me to be a ³naming
coup.² Just a reasoned response to the many opinions voiced over a
reasonable period of time.

Andy

On 9/27/07 8:45 AM, "Ron Peterson" <ron(dot)peterson(at)yellowbank(dot)com> wrote:

> 2007-09-27_01:46:08-0400 Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>:
>
>> > We don't require 100% agreement on anything becuase it is hard to get
>> > anything done.
>
> 100% no. A clear consensus, yes. Or maybe we should just give anyone
> with an opinion on the subject CVS commit privileges and hash it out
> there? I don't see any evidence in this thread that a clear majority
> would prefer the use of 'Postgres' over the official name 'PostgreSQL'
> in official documentation. Is 'Postgres' acceptable shorthand (like
> 'Philly') - yes. Has the official name changed? No. If the official
> name is PostgreSQL, it should continue to be used as such, rather than
> subverted in a thinly disguised naming coup.
>
>> > We are looking for general agreement, and I think we are trying to get
>> > there.
>
> In chess, when you make the same move repeatedly without making any
> progress, it is called a draw. The game mercifully ends. I have not
> seen one person say "Oh, I understand where you are coming from now,
> I've changed my mind completely!". This conversation is going nowhere
> right now. Please don't bring it up again in three weeks. Bring it up
> in three years maybe.
>
> --
> Ron Peterson
> https://www.yellowbank.com/
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>

Andy Astor wrote:
> With respect, Ron, the majority of people in the original conversation
> were clearly in favor of a change, as Bruce has said. In this more
> recent thread, the most vocal opponents have made their opinions clear,
> but most of the original participants have not. This does not appear to
> me to be a “naming coup.” Just a reasoned response to the many opinions
> voiced over a reasonable period of time.

The crux of this (and its the case with most other OSS projects without
a dedicated voting system) is that the "votes" are scattered throught
various threads. There is not a proper place where people can cast (and
update) their vote. As such anyone majority is just a snapshot of who
cares to comment on this thread (again and again since both sides have
people unwilling to give in).

regards,
Lukas

On 9/27/07, Ron Peterson <ron(dot)peterson(at)yellowbank(dot)com> wrote:
> 100% no. A clear consensus, yes.

What do you consider a clear consensus? There's a big difference
between 60%, 75%, and 99.9% agreement?

> Or maybe we should just give anyone with an opinion on the
> subject CVS commit privileges and hash it out there?

#!/bin/bash
while [ 1 -eq 1 ]
do
cd pgsql
cvs update
cd ..
cp -Rp pgsql pgsql-dev
# Could just be done with find + sed, but that's no fun :)
grep -r "PostgreSQL" pgsql-dev/* \
| cut -d : -f 1 | sort | uniq \
| xargs sed -i 's/PostgreSQL/Postgres/g'
cd pgsql-dev
cvs commit
cd ..
rm -rf pgsql-dev
echo "Waiting until next time..."
sleep 30
done

Bring on CVS commit privilege?

> it should continue to be used as such, rather than
> subverted in a thinly disguised naming coup.

I can't determine whether this is an excessive exaggeration or a
conspiracy theory.

> In chess, when you make the same move repeatedly without making any
> progress, it is called a draw.

Qxf7#

> This conversation is going nowhere right now. Please don't
> bring it up again in three weeks. Bring it up in three years
> maybe.

As I see it, there are less than ten or so people vocally against the
official name change and considerably more for it. Of those against
it, two have a business-related financial stake in the name change.
Truly, is it the PostgreSQL community these individuals are looking
out for, or their own businesses?

Frankly, the only substantial community claim I've seen against the
name change is from several members of the JPUG.

--
Jonah H. Harris, Sr. Software Architect | phone: 732.331.1324
EnterpriseDB Corporation | fax: 732.331.1301
499 Thornall Street, 2nd Floor | jonah(dot)harris(at)enterprisedb(dot)com
Edison, NJ 08837 | http://www.enterprisedb.com/

2007-09-27_09:42:59-0400 Andy Astor <andy(dot)astor(at)enterprisedb(dot)com>:

> With respect, Ron, the majority of people in the original conversation were
> clearly in favor of a change, as Bruce has said.

Establishing a clear majority would presume that it was somehow decided
that this forum is the proper venue for deciding such things. When did
that happen? As I've said before, I'm on this forum, and I don't think
my vote should count. Why would anyone want to gerrymander the boundary
of this or that month's participation in an open mailling list as the
basis of PostgreSQL's governance? What rules of procedure are we
following here? As far as I can tell, the PostgreSQL project has no
political organization or structure whatsoever. I'm not saying that is
good or bad (I do think it's a larger more important issue than Postgres
vs. PostgreSQL though), but I do think anyone who posits that a name
change has been decided or that some kind of majority consensus was
established is jumping to conclusions.

> In this more recent thread, the most vocal opponents have made their
> opinions clear, but most of the original participants have not.

Well if this forum is where we take the measure of things, then we
should say the "most vocal opponents" are now in the majority, no? When
do the counts count, exactly?

> This does not appear to me to be a ³naming coup.² Just a reasoned
> response to the many opinions voiced over a reasonable period of time.

I disagree, and I don't think it is reasonable at all to presume to
change the official documentation such that it uses an abbreviation in
lieue of the official name.

--
Ron Peterson
https://www.yellowbank.com/

On 9/27/07, Lukas Kahwe Smith <smith(at)pooteeweet(dot)org> wrote:
> gain and again since both sides have people unwilling to give in

Then we are at an impasse ... the battle of wits has begun

--
Jonah H. Harris, Sr. Software Architect | phone: 732.331.1324
EnterpriseDB Corporation | fax: 732.331.1301
499 Thornall Street, 2nd Floor | jonah(dot)harris(at)enterprisedb(dot)com
Edison, NJ 08837 | http://www.enterprisedb.com/

2007-09-27_10:44:01-0400 "Jonah H. Harris" <jonah(dot)harris(at)gmail(dot)com>:
> On 9/27/07, Lukas Kahwe Smith <smith(at)pooteeweet(dot)org> wrote:
> > gain and again since both sides have people unwilling to give in
>
> Then we are at an impasse ... the battle of wits has begun

A battle of the best CVS update scripts perhaps? :)

--
Ron Peterson
https://www.yellowbank.com/

On 9/27/07, Ron Peterson <ron(dot)peterson(at)yellowbank(dot)com> wrote:
> A battle of the best CVS update scripts perhaps? :)

:)

--
Jonah H. Harris, Sr. Software Architect | phone: 732.331.1324
EnterpriseDB Corporation | fax: 732.331.1301
499 Thornall Street, 2nd Floor | jonah(dot)harris(at)enterprisedb(dot)com
Edison, NJ 08837 | http://www.enterprisedb.com/

On Thursday 27 September 2007 09:42, Andy Astor wrote:
> With respect, Ron, the majority of people in the original conversation were
> clearly in favor of a change, as Bruce has said. > In this more recent
> thread, the most vocal opponents have made their opinions clear, but most
> of the original participants have not. This does not appear to me to be a
> ³naming coup.² Just a reasoned response to the many opinions voiced over a
> reasonable period of time.
>

If the original conversation didn't produce enough consensous to rename the
project, I don't see how that can be interpreted as "We won't rename the
project, but we will change 50% of all references in the docs/faq/website to
the other name".

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

On Thursday 27 September 2007 02:24, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > The point being made is/was that although Postgres is considered as
> > acceptable as Philly is, PostgreSQL is the official name, and what should
> > be used in the *official* documentation ...
>
> OK, but when how do we promote the alias? And isn't the FAQ official?
> We don't have a community that lives together to promote an alias --- we
> have to do it in print somehow. Have you looked at the FAQ changes.
> Please do --- I think it looks fine.

I think it is confusing to use two forms of the name in the same
documentation. Especially where you have a Q & A for where the Q is
PostgreSQL and the A refers to Postgres. Those people the lord has blessed
enough to have been spared this thread probably wont have a clear
understanding of why there are two names being scattered throughout the
information.

IMHO, if we really believe the general consensous is that people prefer to use
the name Postgres, then why not let the momentum build organically from
sources outside of the core project; ie. blogs, articles, 3rd party software,
and other sources. Surely if there is strong demand, we should see it's use
pickup there. If we were to revist the topic in 6 months and you could show
google analytics data that showed Postgres as the most common usage of the
name, I think that would be a powerful argument.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} Postgre

On Thursday 27 September 2007 04:37, Pavel Stehule wrote:
> > So you're in the "Don't care what people call the project" camp rather
> > than the "We need to change but this is the wrong way" one?
> >
> > Just trying to understand your thinking on this.
>
> I have not any problem with pronunciation PostgreSQL or Postgre or
> Postgres. (czech language isn't any problem with this). I can
> understand, so others languages can have problem. Accepting Postgres
> as official short name can good compromise. My sorted arguments:
>
> 1. PostgreSQL is good trademark now.

Actually PostgreSQL's trademark status, in a legal sense, is pretty much
non-existent, and will never be much more than that. The same can be said
for Postgres though, so I think this is a wash.

> 2. change name will do: a) problems for packagers or b)
> inconsistencies between name and packages.

It creates more work for packagers, but I haven't heard any non-starters in
this area. I'll grant that it will probably lead to some additional confusion
in the user base initially.

> 3. All well products has DB or SQL in name.

Oracle, Informix, Progress, Ingres, Vertica.... I think there is enough
evidence on both sides that this can work or not. I'd give the nod that
people who know software development but know nothing of open source
databases are probably more likely to find us with SQL in the product name,
but I'm not really sure how valid that is (for example, we are the #3 link in
google for "open source database", I don't think that would change)

> 4. PostgreSQL is well indexed by google - change name will do worst rank
>

True in a strict sense for the term "PostgreSQL", but "Postgres" is also well
ranked, but by changing the name to Postgres, you'd likely combined most of
these references, and also pick up some other uses like Postgre that should
decline if we move to the short form.

> The change of name is possible, but I believe, it has to be related to
> change of product (add more not SQL features (streaming database
> features, etc).
>

Interesting thought.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} Postgres

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- --On Thursday, September 27, 2007 02:24:40 -0400 Bruce Momjian
<bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:

> OK, but when how do we promote the alias? And isn't the FAQ official?
> We don't have a community that lives together to promote an alias --- we
> have to do it in print somehow. Have you looked at the FAQ changes.
> Please do --- I think it looks fine.

We don't *promote* the alias ... we mention it in the FAQ as being *accepted*
...

- ----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org MSN . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org
Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664
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2007-09-27_10:36:43-0400 "Jonah H. Harris" <jonah(dot)harris(at)gmail(dot)com>:

> Of those against it, two have a business-related financial stake in
> the name change. Truly, is it the PostgreSQL community these
> individuals are looking out for, or their own businesses?

What is the difference?

--
Ron Peterson
https://www.yellowbank.com/

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- --On Thursday, September 27, 2007 09:15:03 +0100 Dave Page
<dpage(at)postgresql(dot)org> wrote:

> So you're in the "Don't care what people call the project" camp rather
> than the "We need to change but this is the wrong way" one?

That's the camp I'm in ... although I can't recall ever seeing anyone refer to
it as Postgre, except in this list ... to be totally honest, if I ever *heard*
anyone refer to it as Postgre, I would have most likely assumed that it was a
language issue ... in French, the 's' would have been silent, so someone French
spelling it 'Postgres', would possibly pronounce it Postgre ...

All we should be "promoting" is that it isn't *wrong* to use Postgres ... what
Bruce is advocating is creating more confusion by flip-flopping between names
within the official documentation ...

- ----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org MSN . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org
Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664
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On Sep 27, 2007, at 8:01 AM, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
> - --On Thursday, September 27, 2007 02:24:40 -0400 Bruce Momjian
> <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
>
>
>> OK, but when how do we promote the alias? And isn't the FAQ
>> official?
>> We don't have a community that lives together to promote an alias
>> --- we
>> have to do it in print somehow. Have you looked at the FAQ changes.
>> Please do --- I think it looks fine.
>
> We don't *promote* the alias ... we mention it in the FAQ as being
> *accepted*

It's not just mentioned in the FAQ as being accepted. The FAQ uses a
random mish-mash of both Postgres and PostgreSQL. In most cases
it feels as though they're two closely related, but different products.

For example, FAQ 1.2 talks about PostgreSQL, then parenthetically
tells people to look elsewhere to get involved in Postgres development.

FAQ 1.3 makes it clear that Windows XP and friends will run
PostgreSQL, but Windows 95 and friends can only run Postgres.

FAQ 1.8 says that any bugs found with PostgreSQL should be
reported to the developers, but if there's a problem with Postgres
you should simply update to the latest release.

It'd be easy to assume that PostgreSQL and Postgres were not the
same thing (perhaps commercial and open source variants of the
same thing). Heck, I'm not sure it doesn't imply that, and I know
they're the same thing, English is my native language and I'm
aware of the -advocacy thread of doom.

It's a misleading piece of documentation at this point, and should
be fixed.

Cheers,
Steve

On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote:

> The crux of this (and its the case with most other OSS projects without a
> dedicated voting system) is that the "votes" are scattered throught various
> threads. There is not a proper place where people can cast (and update) their
> vote.

The poll EnterpriseDB has been running at
http://postgres.enterprisedb.com/ is up to 238 votes, with 56% for the
change to Postgres, 28% against, and 15% don't care. That's a
considerably larger sample than the number of people who have expressed an
opinion on the mailing lists, and 66% of the people who do care voting for
the change is a pretty clear majority. I did a rough count of the earlier
thread on this subject, and I recall the distribution was similar there;
my read has been that the people against the name change have just gotten
increasing vocal relative to their numbers since then. This is no
surprise as Bruce's actions have been satisfying those for the name change
while aggrevating those against.

The thought of "polling" via asking this question on the pgsql-general
list horrifies me; I'd hate to see that list hit by the denial of service
effect this one has taken addressing this issue, and I don't think that's
enough exposure either. If the community really wants to get some serious
scale polling on this subject, I'd suggest putting a poll somewhere that
people reading the 8.3 press releases would come across it.

What I started doing recently every time I'm tempted to jump into this
thread is instead take a look at
http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php/Postgres to try and figure out
how to add something useful to that rather than posting into the argument.

--
* Greg Smith gsmith(at)gregsmith(dot)com http://www.gregsmith.com Baltimore, MD

>
> > 3. All well products has DB or SQL in name.
>
> Oracle, Informix, Progress, Ingres, Vertica.... I think there is enough
> evidence on both sides that this can work or not. I'd give the nod that
> people who know software development but know nothing of open source
> databases are probably more likely to find us with SQL in the product name,
> but I'm not really sure how valid that is (for example, we are the #3 link in
> google for "open source database", I don't think that would change)

look to official names

Oracle Database ..
Informix Dynamic Server
Progress RDBMS

Pavel

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Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Pavel Stehule wrote:
>> Hello Bruce
>>
>> I really unlike this game about change the name. If you get 100%
>> support then situation is simple, but you hasn't it. I use PostgreSQL,
>> Postgres and I doesn't any strong benefit with change of name.
>> Devrim's argument about renaming all packages is really strong for me.
>>
>> I agree so official documentation have to use only name PostgreSQL. Is
>> technical documentation not articles. And again I don't see any
>> benefit. Currently Postgres is well know synonym for PostgreSQL and
>> there isn't necessary push it into documentation. Please stop it.
>
> We don't require 100% agreement on anything becuase it is hard to get
> anything done. We are looking for general agreement, and I think we are
> trying to get there.
>

We had general agreement. We modified the FAQ.

Joshua D. Drake

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>> - --On Thursday, September 27, 2007 02:17:18 -0400 Bruce Momjian
>> <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:

>>>> Yes, you do. You may try not to, and you may do it less, but you
>>>> certainly do. Which just proves the force of habit.
>>> Yea, I am sure you are right. We also say "water" strangely (Wu-der)
>>> which confuses many people too.
>> The point being made is/was that although Postgres is considered as acceptable
>> as Philly is, PostgreSQL is the official name, and what should be used in the
>> *official* documentation ...
>
> OK, but when how do we promote the alias?

We don't, there is no reason to. It exists. That is enough. It will get
used or it won't. I imagine it will.

> And isn't the FAQ official?
> We don't have a community that lives together to promote an alias --- we
> have to do it in print somehow. Have you looked at the FAQ changes.
> Please do --- I think it looks fine.

Are you talking about this FAQ change?

PostgreSQL is pronounced Post-Gres-Q-L, but can also be referred to as
simply Postgres, particularly in conversation. (For those curious about
how to say "PostgreSQL", an audio file is available.)

I didn't see any others. I have zero problem with the above.

Joshua D. Drake

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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Dave Page wrote:
> Pavel Stehule wrote:
>> FAQ isn't strict technical documentation, and there aliases arn't too
>> bad. Why do you thing so word Postgres needs any promoting?
>
> Isn't it obvious from the number of people calling it Postgre that an
> acceptable short form should be promoted?

What people? The three or four that I run into once a month? So what...

>
> Earlier in this round of discussion it seemed that most people didn't
> like seeing postgre, but we were split on an official name change to
> Postgres. Doesn't it therefore make sense to leave the official name,
> and just promote the acceptable short name?

IMO, no. It makes sense to leave the official name and accept the short
name.

Joshua D. Drake

>
> /D
>

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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Jonah H. Harris wrote:
> On 9/27/07, Ron Peterson <ron(dot)peterson(at)yellowbank(dot)com> wrote:
>> 100% no. A clear consensus, yes.

> As I see it, there are less than ten or so people vocally against the
> official name change and considerably more for it. Of those against
> it, two have a business-related financial stake in the name change.
> Truly, is it the PostgreSQL community these individuals are looking
> out for, or their own businesses?

There is not once person on this list arguing one way or the other that
doesn't have "some" stake in the name. The business has nothing to do
with this. If I felt the "name" would hurt or help me, I certainly
wouldnt' be using the name "Command Prompt" for a "Database" company.

>
> Frankly, the only substantial community claim I've seen against the
> name change is from several members of the JPUG.
>

Are we forgetting the french and italians?

Joshua D. Drake

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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Steve Atkins wrote:

>> We don't *promote* the alias ... we mention it in the FAQ as being
>> *accepted*
>
> It's not just mentioned in the FAQ as being accepted. The FAQ uses a
> random mish-mash of both Postgres and PostgreSQL. In most cases
> it feels as though they're two closely related, but different products.
>
> For example, FAQ 1.2 talks about PostgreSQL, then parenthetically
> tells people to look elsewhere to get involved in Postgres development.
>
> FAQ 1.3 makes it clear that Windows XP and friends will run
> PostgreSQL, but Windows 95 and friends can only run Postgres.

Hmmm... I didn't see these changes. These are clearly bad and short
sighted, nor were they approved by consensus.

Joshua D. Drake

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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> There is not once person on this list arguing one way or the other that
> doesn't have "some" stake in the name. The business has nothing to do

Ok, let me be the first. I have no stake in the name... and honestly, I
haven't read the entire thread because I didn't have the time to do so.
But I'm kind of confused as to why it's such a big deal, or - as many
others wonder - why people are wasting so many neural cycles (which could
be used for economic output) on this.

Let me present this analogy: MS SQL Server. In all of the official
documentation, Microsoft refers to it as its proper name. However,
whilst discussing it with other IT folks, you'll hear it referred to as
everything from "Sequel Server" to "SQL Server" to "Squeal Server" to
"Squalid Server".

Likewise, the PG documentation should keep referring to it as PostgreSQL,
and people will refer to it as whatever they like. There isn't a current,
competing product with a name like Postgres, so there should be no
confusion when someone says "Postgres" as to exactly what they're talking
about.

For those who have pronunciation issues, how do they pronounce:

Microsoft SQL Server
MySQL
PostgreSQL

Cheers,
-J

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
>> Pavel Stehule wrote:
>>> FAQ isn't strict technical documentation, and there aliases arn't too
>>> bad. Why do you thing so word Postgres needs any promoting?
>> Isn't it obvious from the number of people calling it Postgre that an
>> acceptable short form should be promoted?
>
> What people? The three or four that I run into once a month? So what...

Google groups shows 148 hits in the last month, including someone
setting up a postgre user community.

To get an un-skewed-by-this-thread number, I also searched for posts in
January. There were 172.

That's a lot more than 3 or 4 a month, even if you assume that 75% are
dups from later messages in the same threads. And it doesn't include the
vastly larger number of people that continue to use the incorrect name
but didn't post to a mailing list or newsgroup.

/D

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Dave Page wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Dave Page wrote:
>>> Pavel Stehule wrote:
>>>> FAQ isn't strict technical documentation, and there aliases arn't too
>>>> bad. Why do you thing so word Postgres needs any promoting?
>>> Isn't it obvious from the number of people calling it Postgre that an
>>> acceptable short form should be promoted?
>> What people? The three or four that I run into once a month? So what...
>
> Google groups shows 148 hits in the last month, including someone
> setting up a postgre user community.
>
> To get an un-skewed-by-this-thread number, I also searched for posts in
> January. There were 172.
>
> That's a lot more than 3 or 4 a month,

Well I did say , "me". I didn't say everyone.

>even if you assume that 75% are
> dups from later messages in the same threads. And it doesn't include the
> vastly larger number of people that continue to use the incorrect name
> but didn't post to a mailing list or newsgroup.

I don't see Postgres eliminating the Postgre problem. If there is even
actually a Postgre problem, which even with your numbers is a really
hard argument to make in consideration of the global scheme of things.

Heck, Robert Treat uses Postgre on irc all the time ;)

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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On Thursday 27 September 2007 14:10, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
> > Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> >> Dave Page wrote:
> >>> Pavel Stehule wrote:
> >>>> FAQ isn't strict technical documentation, and there aliases arn't too
> >>>> bad. Why do you thing so word Postgres needs any promoting?
> >>>
> >>> Isn't it obvious from the number of people calling it Postgre that an
> >>> acceptable short form should be promoted?
> >>
> >> What people? The three or four that I run into once a month? So what...
> >
> > Google groups shows 148 hits in the last month, including someone
> > setting up a postgre user community.
> >
> > To get an un-skewed-by-this-thread number, I also searched for posts in
> > January. There were 172.
> >
> > That's a lot more than 3 or 4 a month,
>
> Well I did say , "me". I didn't say everyone.
>
> >even if you assume that 75% are
> > dups from later messages in the same threads. And it doesn't include the
> > vastly larger number of people that continue to use the incorrect name
> > but didn't post to a mailing list or newsgroup.
>
> I don't see Postgres eliminating the Postgre problem. If there is even
> actually a Postgre problem, which even with your numbers is a really
> hard argument to make in consideration of the global scheme of things.
>

Joshua,

Looking at my how to spot a troll guidebook:

1) responds to every post in a thread

from my count Joshua, you have posted 11 times on this topic today

2) attempts to misdirect the conversation in other directions, away from the
central issue

rename it pg? yeah, that sidetracked a few people.

3) ignores 3rd party / independent evidence that they don't agree with.

I've posted on multiple occasions about the use of postgre, in community
polls, in analytics data for the website, and in search engine use. Plus I
know that you know David Fetter has a special bot command just to send people
on IRC that come in mentioning postgre.

So, will you please get back to discussing this seriously? I think you have a
valid position, but no one will take it seriously the way you are behaving.
Unless you have already given up, in which case please just stop posting.

PS. I see you just posted again while I was writing this, so that's 12 times.
And it's phpPgAdmin.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

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Robert Treat wrote:
> On Thursday 27 September 2007 14:10, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Dave Page wrote:
>>> even if you assume that 75% are
>>> dups from later messages in the same threads. And it doesn't include the
>
> Joshua,
>
> Looking at my how to spot a troll guidebook:
>
> 1) responds to every post in a thread
>
> from my count Joshua, you have posted 11 times on this topic today

I will admit, I have been a bit rabid on this topic. The mistake I made
this morning was to respond to each post in kind (instead of a sum) when
I woke up.

>
> 2) attempts to misdirect the conversation in other directions, away from the
> central issue
>
> rename it pg? yeah, that sidetracked a few people.

I started a new thread not to sidetrack people, but to insure I didn't
hijack the existing thread.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/

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Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
> although I can't recall ever seeing anyone refer to
> it as Postgre, except in this list ... to be totally honest, if I ever *heard*
> anyone refer to it as Postgre...

If you're in sales and bring up a powerpoint that says "PostgreSQL" to
customers you hear 'Postgre SQL' a lot. If you're in IT and show less
technical executive management a proposal that says "PostgreSQL" you
hear 'Postgre' a lot. If you're an entrepreneur showing potential
investors a business plan that says "PostgreSQL" you hear 'why Postgre'
a lot. In none of those situations is it a good use of time to go off
on pronunciation tangents.

To get a feeling for this, show the term to any people you know who aren't
familiar with the project and ask how they would say it. Another way to get
a feeling for it is to look at a word we're less numb to. Is "AppleSQL"
pronounced "Apples Q. L" or is "MarCGF" pronounced "Marc G. F."?

On 9/27/07, Ron Mayer <rm_pg(at)cheapcomplexdevices(dot)com> wrote:
> Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> >
> > although I can't recall ever seeing anyone refer to
> > it as Postgre, except in this list ... to be totally honest, if I ever *heard*
> > anyone refer to it as Postgre...
>
> If you're in sales and bring up a powerpoint that says "PostgreSQL" to
> customers you hear 'Postgre SQL' a lot. If you're in IT and show less
> technical executive management a proposal that says "PostgreSQL" you
> hear 'Postgre' a lot. If you're an entrepreneur showing potential
> investors a business plan that says "PostgreSQL" you hear 'why Postgre'
> a lot. In none of those situations is it a good use of time to go off
> on pronunciation tangents.
>
> To get a feeling for this, show the term to any people you know who aren't
> familiar with the project and ask how they would say it. Another way to get
> a feeling for it is to look at a word we're less numb to. Is "AppleSQL"
> pronounced "Apples Q. L" or is "MarCGF" pronounced "Marc G. F."?
>

2 pennies from me.

Sounds, text and language differ and this is an international project
and community.
Add to the international flavor by recording the spoken word(s) in a
variety of languages.
Put them on the site.
"Regardless of how you say it, it is the World's Most Advanced Open
Source Database"

Turn this lemon of a thread into lemonade.

Joshua D. Drake escribió:

> > Frankly, the only substantial community claim I've seen against the
> > name change is from several members of the JPUG.
>
> Are we forgetting the french and italians?

They weren't against the name change -- only against changing it all of
a sudden (that's what an Italian guy said at least IIRC).

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/CTMLCN8V17R4
"Nadie esta tan esclavizado como el que se cree libre no siendolo" (Goethe)

On 9/27/07, Alvaro Herrera <alvherre(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:
> > Are we forgetting the french and italians?
>
> They weren't against the name change -- only against changing it all of
> a sudden (that's what an Italian guy said at least IIRC).

That's what I recall as well.

--
Jonah H. Harris, Sr. Software Architect | phone: 732.331.1324
EnterpriseDB Corporation | fax: 732.331.1301
499 Thornall Street, 2nd Floor | jonah(dot)harris(at)enterprisedb(dot)com
Edison, NJ 08837 | http://www.enterprisedb.com/

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
> > Pavel Stehule wrote:
> >> FAQ isn't strict technical documentation, and there aliases arn't too
> >> bad. Why do you thing so word Postgres needs any promoting?
> >
> > Isn't it obvious from the number of people calling it Postgre that an
> > acceptable short form should be promoted?
>
> What people? The three or four that I run into once a month? So what...
>
> >
> > Earlier in this round of discussion it seemed that most people didn't
> > like seeing postgre, but we were split on an official name change to
> > Postgres. Doesn't it therefore make sense to leave the official name,
> > and just promote the acceptable short name?
>
> IMO, no. It makes sense to leave the official name and accept the short
> name.

This entire thread reminds me of the concerns I had about advocacy list
focus a few months ago.

I think I will just ignore most posts and return in a few weeks to get a
poll on adding alias usage to the documentation, get a majority (or not),
and move on.

While making the alias additions is a good use of my time, arguing with
some people is not a good use of my time. I will just take their
negative votes along with the positive votes and move on.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://postgres.enterprisedb.com

+ If your life is a hard drive, Christ can be your backup. +

On 9/28/07, Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
> I think I will just ignore most posts and return in a few weeks to get a
> poll on adding alias usage to the documentation, get a majority (or not),
> and move on.
>
> While making the alias additions is a good use of my time, arguing with
> some people is not a good use of my time. I will just take their
> negative votes along with the positive votes and move on.

Sounds like a good plan.

--
Jonah H. Harris, Sr. Software Architect | phone: 732.331.1324
EnterpriseDB Corporation | fax: 732.331.1301
499 Thornall Street, 2nd Floor | jonah(dot)harris(at)enterprisedb(dot)com
Edison, NJ 08837 | http://www.enterprisedb.com/

On Wed, Sep 26, 2007 at 04:26:32PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
> widely used.

Uh, I thought the argument was that "Postgres" was already widely
used, so we should start using it more widely?

A

--
Andrew Sullivan | ajs(at)crankycanuck(dot)ca
In the future this spectacle of the middle classes shocking the avant-
garde will probably become the textbook definition of Postmodernism.
--Brad Holland

At least in Brazil lots of people (including me) use "Postgres" all the time.
A agree with the alias argument and also think that it's already widely used.

On 9/28/07, Andrew Sullivan <ajs(at)crankycanuck(dot)ca> wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2007 at 04:26:32PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >
> > But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
> > widely used.
>
> Uh, I thought the argument was that "Postgres" was already widely
> used, so we should start using it more widely?
>
> A
>
> --
> Andrew Sullivan | ajs(at)crankycanuck(dot)ca
> In the future this spectacle of the middle classes shocking the avant-
> garde will probably become the textbook definition of Postmodernism.
> --Brad Holland
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives?
>
> http://archives.postgresql.org
>

--
Diogo Biazus - diogob(at)gmail(dot)com
Móvel Consultoria
http://www.movelinfo.com.br
http://www.postgresql.org.br

On 9/26/2007 4:35 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>> Derek Rodner wrote:
>>>> In presentations, articles, blogs, etc. Any publicly visible spot.
>>> This is assuming the name of the project has changed. It hasn't. The
>>> name of this project is PostgreSQL.
>>
>> But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
>> widely used.
>
> I am unsure of the importance of this point. The name of the project is
> PostgreSQL, not Postgres. If the alias doesn't get used, who cares.

It seems you care very much for "the alias not getting used".

Jan

>
>>
>>> This whole thread stinks of... I couldn't get my way and change the name
>>> outright so instead I will subvert my will through alternative means...
>>
>> Well, actually, I see it the opposite where you brow-beat folks until
>> you think they will quit. (I am not a quitter, which I think you know.)
>> And I certainly do think the name change will finally be made, so I
>> don't feel like I have to subvert anything.
>>
>
> Well at least you are honest :) but consider that (I am not a quitter,
> which I think you know.)
>
> So you and I are going to be at this *a long* time.
>
>> I thought it would not be a controversial change because I already
>> stated I wanted to make the alias more visible and no one objected. Now
>> I have a few objections and a lot of people who think it is a good idea.
>>
>
> If you review the thread it appears that the equation is similar to that
> of the name change... e.g; no clear majority.
>
>> Frankly, if the alias takes hold we might not need to make the full name
>> change -- supressing this idea now might actually hasten the name
>> change.
>
>>> The community "just" accepted the FAQ change, and now you want to start
>>> this?
>>>
>>> Let it lay.
>>
>> Again, why shut down the discussion?
>
> Because.. silence is not approval the longer this thread goes on, the
> more likely it will only be the very few participating. Likely the few
> on core that participate and the few long time contributors such as myself.
>
> Which means, it will never end, and continue to polarize external
> community and people will just give up. That isn't good.
>
> Brow beating is not good. It is negative and counter productive. You
> won't win anything, but you certainly may cause a lot of antagonism (as
> may I with my alternate view).
>
> Note that this may be worth while in the future, but all things come in
> time and I don't think this is the right time.
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
>
>
>
> - --
>
> === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
> Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
> PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
> UNIQUE NOT NULL
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> PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
>
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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
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--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com #

On 9/26/2007 5:45 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>>> Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>>>>> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>>>>>> But without such changes the alias is only in the FAQ and will not be
>>>>>> widely used.
>>>>> I'm not sure if this has been thought through to the end. If we make
>>>>> the point that PostgreSQL can also be called Postgres, this does not
>>>>> prevent anyone from calling it Postgre or any other forms that we might
>>>>> not like. It might in fact make people think that it has various names
>>>>> and you can call it whatever you want.
>>>> Well, they are already calling it "Postgre" without our help, so I see
>>>> us giving them a clear alternative to PostgreSQL as helping avoid
>>>> "Postgre".
>>>>
>>>> But in the end, they can continue calling us whatever they want and we
>>>> can't stop them.
>>> Then why are we bothering trying?
>>
>> Because though we can't _stop_ them, we can certainly influence them.
>> Why are you asking such simplistic questions?
>
> It seemed odd to me. You said, "we can't stop them". So it seems like an
> awful lot of wasted effort to try.

Unless you are in complete denial by now you will have to agree that
Postgre is mostly a side effect of having PostgreSQL as any official
name instead of Postgres. Removing the tumor may not cure in an instant,
but you sure start the healing process doing so.

Jan

>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
>
>>
>
>
> - --
>
> === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
> Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
> PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
> UNIQUE NOT NULL
> Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
> PostgreSQL Replication: http://www.commandprompt.com/products/
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
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--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com #

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- --On Saturday, September 29, 2007 15:09:26 -0400 Jan Wieck
<JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com>
wrote:

> It seems you care very much for "the alias not getting used".

I'm in that camp ... but I'm not in the "chastise anyone that uses Postgres or
Postgre" camp ... the official name is 'PostgreSQL', the 'common name(s)' are
Postgres and Postgre (or Pg, or PgSQL, we have several to choose from) ...

Anyone that believes that switching to Postgres is going to get rid of Postgre,
mind you, is severely deluding themselves, IMHO ... its a name that is out
there, those that are using it to reference the project are in the habit of
doing so now, and changing the official name isn't going to change that habit
...

- ----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org MSN . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org
Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664
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On 9/26/2007 10:34 PM, Adrian Klaver wrote:
> in the USA and UK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6988521.stm). Officially
> imperial units are the standard in both countries with metric units existing
> in parallel. The failure to make the switch is chalked up to the difficulties
> it would impose (sound familiar). The reality is that as an end user I have
> to use and am familiar with metric system. I understand the difficulties
> inherent in change of any sort, but change happens and it is time to get out
> in front of this one.

While the 1866 US legislation officially legalized the metric system
(allowing measurements to be given in metric only and no court shall
rule them illegal), the 1902 legislation failed to force the government
to use metric only *by one vote*.

Funny enough, all the countries I know who actually did changes of that
magnitude had success in the end. And changing to metric is by far not
the largest scale change. Turkey for example switched from arabic
writing to a western style using a latin based alphabet in the late
1920's. It began in May 1928 and although many members of the Turkish
Great National Assembly originally wanted it to be done gradually over 5
years or so, on January 1st, 1929 it became illegal to write Turkish in
arabic letters. Think about it, they made the whole nation illiterate
over night and it worked! The language reform is controversial to this
day and that is, in my opinion, a good thing because it keeps the
heritage alive. But I guess nobody on any side of that multi-dimensional
fence would doubt that the actual cash value of using a latin based
writing system became very clear when Turkey applied to join the
European Community (today known as European Union) in 1947. Of course,
it only took 50 years to actually become a full member of the EU in 1999
... but that only shows that European bureaucracy can well compete with
its American counterpart.

Here we are, 80 years after the Turks demonstrated what can be done and
many members of our PostgreaseQL Great International Assembly think it
is best to do it gradually over 5 years or so. And they make sure that
any possible vote to force otherwise will fail *at least by one*.

Remember: If you make all the same mistakes again, you have a very good
chance that history repeats itself.

Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com #

On 29/09/2007 22:32, Jan Wieck wrote:

> it only took 50 years to actually become a full member of the EU in 1999

Without meaning to distract from your main point, which is well made,
I'd like to point out that Turkey is still not a full member of the EU -
formal talks between Turkey and the EU with a view to its accession
began a couple of years ago, as I recall, and are likely to continue for
quite a few years yet.

Ray.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Raymond O'Donnell, Director of Music, Galway Cathedral, Ireland
rod(at)iol(dot)ie
---------------------------------------------------------------

On 29/09/2007 22:40, Raymond O'Donnell wrote:

> On 29/09/2007 22:32, Jan Wieck wrote:
>
>> it only took 50 years to actually become a full member of the EU in 1999
>
> Without meaning to distract from your main point, which is well made,
> I'd like to point out that Turkey is still not a full member of the EU -

A quick Google turned up the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union

Ray.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Raymond O'Donnell, Director of Music, Galway Cathedral, Ireland
rod(at)iol(dot)ie
---------------------------------------------------------------

On 9/29/2007 5:44 PM, Raymond O'Donnell wrote:
> On 29/09/2007 22:40, Raymond O'Donnell wrote:
>
>> On 29/09/2007 22:32, Jan Wieck wrote:
> >
>>> it only took 50 years to actually become a full member of the EU in 1999
>>
>> Without meaning to distract from your main point, which is well made,
>> I'd like to point out that Turkey is still not a full member of the EU -
>
> A quick Google turned up the following:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union

Oh, right, in 1999 they were only recognized as candidate for full
membership. Now that is bureaucracy at its finest.

You think we can drag this naming issue longer that they have dragged
this membership? Come on, let's at least try.

Jan

--
#======================================================================#
# It's easier to get forgiveness for being wrong than for being right. #
# Let's break this rule - forgive me. #
#================================================== JanWieck(at)Yahoo(dot)com #

On Sep 27, 2007, at 9:44 AM, Jonah H. Harris wrote:
> On 9/27/07, Lukas Kahwe Smith <smith(at)pooteeweet(dot)org> wrote:
>> gain and again since both sides have people unwilling to give in
>
> Then we are at an impasse ... the battle of wits has begun

This word... I do not think it means what you think it means!
--
Decibel!, aka Jim C. Nasby, Database Architect decibel(at)decibel(dot)org
Give your computer some brain candy! www.distributed.net Team #1828

Bruce Momjian wrote:
> I think I will just ignore most posts and return in a few weeks to
> get a poll on adding alias usage to the documentation, get a majority
> (or not), and move on.

The advocacy list is not the forum to decide what gets written into the
documentation. If people have qualified opinions on that, join the
docs list.

--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/