Proposed new policy for Training events

All,

We're getting some abuse on the training event front, and I'd like to
pass a new policy:

Frequency: no company may list more than three training events per
quarter. If the company has more training than that, they are
encouraged to post links to their own web page schedule.

Content: Training events will include *one paragraph* of descriptive
content, describing in a factual way what the contents of the training
is. Hyperbole, competitive messaging, and offers of free gifts are
prohibited.

Currently CertFirst is spamming us with more than 20 training events
offering a free iPod and containing ALL CAPS and many exclamations!!!!!!
as well as about 2 pages of text each.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
www.pgexperts.com

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 5:09 AM, Josh Berkus<josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:
> All,
>
> We're getting some abuse on the training event front, and I'd like to pass a
> new policy:
>
> Frequency: no company may list more than three training events per quarter.
>  If the company has more training than that, they are encouraged to post
> links to their own web page schedule.

That really doesn't work as the listings are supposed to in a calendar
of sorts. Besides, whilst the latest posts are most certainly taking
the mickey, most other companies will post more than 3 events per
quarter, quite legitimately. I feel it's important for our events
listings to show the breadth and frequency of the training available.

> Content: Training events will include *one paragraph* of descriptive
> content, describing in a factual way what the contents of the training is.

I see no reason for this restriction. Look back at past submissions
from companies other than the one that triggered this. Most will have
more than one paragraph of text, and most is useful information.

>  Hyperbole, competitive messaging, and offers of free gifts are prohibited.

No objections.

> Currently xxxx is spamming us with more than 20 training events
> offering a free iPod and containing ALL CAPS and many exclamations!!!!!! as
> well as about 2 pages of text each.

Meh. I should read the whole of your message before going out of my
way not to mention the name of the company involved.

The fact is, we *only* seem to get complaints about this particular
company, who operate right on the border of what most of us seem to
consider acceptable, and most of those third party complaints seem to
be un-verifiable which has previously meant we've not taken any action
against them. I think we should take all these past complaints and
problems into account, make the assumption that there isn't a
continuous stream of smoke without an actual fire and stop accepting
postings from them in the future.

/D

On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 21:09 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
> All,
>
> We're getting some abuse on the training event front, and I'd like to
> pass a new policy:
>
> Frequency: no company may list more than three training events per
> quarter. If the company has more training than that, they are
> encouraged to post links to their own web page schedule.
>
> Content: Training events will include *one paragraph* of descriptive
> content, describing in a factual way what the contents of the training
> is. Hyperbole, competitive messaging, and offers of free gifts are
> prohibited.
>
> Currently CertFirst is spamming us with more than 20 training events
> offering a free iPod and containing ALL CAPS and many exclamations!!!!!!
> as well as about 2 pages of text each.

This is a moderator problem. They should not be approved in that matter.
We don't need a "new" policy. We need moderators to practice better
discretion.

Joshua D. Drake

>
> --
> Josh Berkus
> PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
> www.pgexperts.com
>
--
PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
Consulting, Development, Support, Training
503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997

This is not a moderation problem.

This is an architecture problem. We currently accept one event per
city, and that is the main reason for this problem. Training events
often happen in many plances, being the case they are provided by
cross-world/country organizations, at the same time. (check
screenshot)

What if we tweak that?

gb.-

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 1:24 PM, Joshua D. Drake<jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2009-06-29 at 21:09 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> We're getting some abuse on the training event front, and I'd like to
>> pass a new policy:
>>
>> Frequency: no company may list more than three training events per
>> quarter.  If the company has more training than that, they are
>> encouraged to post links to their own web page schedule.
>>
>> Content: Training events will include *one paragraph* of descriptive
>> content, describing in a factual way what the contents of the training
>> is.  Hyperbole, competitive messaging, and offers of free gifts are
>> prohibited.
>>
>> Currently CertFirst is spamming us with more than 20 training events
>> offering a free iPod and containing ALL CAPS and many exclamations!!!!!!
>> as well as about 2 pages of text each.
>
> This is a moderator problem. They should not be approved in that matter.
> We don't need a "new" policy. We need moderators to practice better
> discretion.
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
>
>>
>> --
>> Josh Berkus
>> PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
>> www.pgexperts.com
>>
> --
> PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
>   Consulting, Development, Support, Training
>   503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
>   The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list (pgsql-www(at)postgresql(dot)org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www
>

On Tue, 2009-06-30 at 13:56 -0300, Guido Barosio wrote:
> This is not a moderation problem.
>

I do not agree. Certain companies who submit don't actually fulfill
their classes. They spam with potential classes in hopes to fill it and
keep there name out there.

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
Consulting, Development, Support, Training
503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997

JD, thoughts are thoughts, appreciate your input. BUT, we need to take
an action on this matter. And that is what Josh is asking for, whereas
I also agree with him.

BTW: What do you mean by "moderators should practice better discretion" ?

Yours,
GB.-

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 1:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake<jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-06-30 at 13:56 -0300, Guido Barosio wrote:
>> This is not a moderation problem.
>>
>
> I do not agree. Certain companies who submit don't actually fulfill
> their classes. They spam with potential classes in hopes to fill it and
> keep there name out there.
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
>
> --
> PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
>   Consulting, Development, Support, Training
>   503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
>   The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997
>
>

Dave,

> The fact is, we *only* seem to get complaints about this particular
> company, who operate right on the border of what most of us seem to
> consider acceptable, and most of those third party complaints seem to
> be un-verifiable which has previously meant we've not taken any action
> against them. I think we should take all these past complaints and
> problems into account, make the assumption that there isn't a
> continuous stream of smoke without an actual fire and stop accepting
> postings from them in the future.

OK. I just wanted some official word from the web team on this, since
we're likely to get some backlash from them somewhere.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
www.pgexperts.com

On Tue, 2009-06-30 at 14:09 -0300, Guido Barosio wrote:
> JD, thoughts are thoughts, appreciate your input. BUT, we need to take
> an action on this matter. And that is what Josh is asking for, whereas
> I also agree with him.
>
> BTW: What do you mean by "moderators should practice better discretion" ?

I would deny any event/training that was being posted in such a manner
as the complaint. (ALL CAPS etc, bad grammar etc...).

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
Consulting, Development, Support, Training
503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997

LOL, +1

gb.-

On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Joshua D. Drake<jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:
> On Tue, 2009-06-30 at 14:09 -0300, Guido Barosio wrote:
>> JD, thoughts are thoughts, appreciate your input. BUT, we need to take
>> an action on this matter. And that is what Josh is asking for, whereas
>> I also agree with him.
>>
>> BTW: What do you mean by "moderators should practice better discretion" ?
>
> I would deny any event/training that was being posted in such a manner
> as the complaint. (ALL CAPS etc, bad grammar etc...).
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
> --
> PostgreSQL - XMPP: jdrake(at)jabber(dot)postgresql(dot)org
>   Consulting, Development, Support, Training
>   503-667-4564 - http://www.commandprompt.com/
>   The PostgreSQL Company, serving since 1997
>
>

"Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
> I would deny any event/training that was being posted in such a manner
> as the complaint. (ALL CAPS etc, bad grammar etc...).

Seems like what we want is a policy stating that postings are supposed
to be informational, not advertising, and written in a professional
manner.

regards, tom lane

Josh Berkus wrote:
> All,
Sorry to chime in late here..I don't check this list as often as some of
the others.
>
> We're getting some abuse on the training event front, and I'd like to
> pass a new policy:
>
> Frequency: no company may list more than three training events per
> quarter. If the company has more training than that, they are
> encouraged to post links to their own web page schedule.
Okay. I think I proposed this in the past, and the response I got was
that it was legitimate for a company to offer courses in many locations
on many dates, so long as there was a reasonable chance that they would
run the course. In fact, it was a result of that discussion that we
started doing something similar (to be competitive more than anything
else). Our result was 100% of the courses at our NC location running as
advertised (we guarantee them to run anyways), and about 15% of our
non-NC courses running as advertised. We've since (more or less, with
an occasional exception where we see significant demand or are exploring
a new market) discontinued that practice, since I didn't think it had
the value we wanted.

However, that being said, we offer far more than a single administration
course (performance tuning, HA, PostGIS, Administration), and a policy
of no more than 3 events per quarter seems restrictive. We might offer
a HA course twice a year, a Admin course twice a quarter, a postgis
course twice a year and a performance course twice a quarter. A three
events per quarter rule might put us on the cusp of not being able to
list events that we would almost always run.

Furthermore, these are class that actually run - perhaps with only a
couple of people in some cases - but they are being run....
> Content: Training events will include *one paragraph* of descriptive
> content, describing in a factual way what the contents of the training
> is. Hyperbole, competitive messaging, and offers of free gifts are
> prohibited.
This needs to be clarified a bit. Events are split into two parts, a
"Summary" (where I see your rule applying) and "Details" (we use that to
cite some references, post the course content, and additional details,
cancellation policy, etc.). I think your noted policy WRT content makes
sense for the summary, but not for the details. Also, I'm not sure I'm
100% clear on what "competitive messaging" is...is that posting links to
customer references (for example, we link to a review written on Planet
PostgreSQL for our Performance class), using words like "unlike our
competitors", or listing pricing.

Case in point is here:
http://www.postgresql.org/about/event.872
http://www.postgresql.org/about/event.826
http://www.postgresql.org/about/event.867

My contention is that "Detail" is for that - details about the course....
> Currently CertFirst is spamming us with more than 20 training events
> offering a free iPod and containing ALL CAPS and many
> exclamations!!!!!! as well as about 2 pages of text each.
Also, I think events that contain no direct relation to PostgreSQL
should be disallowed. For example a Nagios course, which might monitor
PostgreSQL - but works with lots of other things should not be allowed.

Case in point would be an event like this one, which deals with open
source cartography and MapServer, but seems to have no content related
to PostgreSQL or PostGIS:

http://www.postgresql.org/about/event.867

--
Chander Ganesan
Open Technology Group, Inc.
One Copley Parkway, Suite 210
Morrisville, NC 27560
919-463-0999/877-258-8987
http://www.otg-nc.com