Re: Features list

I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again
saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the
lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about
postgres these days.

It seems to us (me and the guys in the office here) that there is
nowhere on the front page of the website to see why we're the world's
most advanced open source DB - in fact, you have to dive in to the About
section and then find a bullet pointed list of features at the bottom of
the Advantages page.

In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features
(including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a
more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with
non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres.

So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show
people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses:

- Option 1 - Add a new vertical panel (perhaps replacing the Planet
PostgreSQL one) listing 'Feature at a glance'. This would be a bullet
point list, with links to further information where required - for
example, to explain the benefits of MVCC or our Replication-in-core
policy and external solutions.

- Option 2 - Add a new horizontal panel under the announcement panel,
and above the featured user, containing a 'How can PostgreSQL help me'
link (or some other similar text), linking to a page bullet pointing the
technical reasons, including the replication info.

- Option 3 - Add a 'Key Features' menu option to the grey banner,
right-justified so it appears under the tagline in the banner. Link this
to the same page described in option 2.

Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas?

Regards, Dave

On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 12:22:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again
> saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the
> lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about
> postgres these days.
>
> It seems to us (me and the guys in the office here) that there is
> nowhere on the front page of the website to see why we're the world's
> most advanced open source DB - in fact, you have to dive in to the About
> section and then find a bullet pointed list of features at the bottom of
> the Advantages page.
>
> In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features
> (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a
> more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with
> non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres.
>
> So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show
> people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses:
>
> - Option 1 - Add a new vertical panel (perhaps replacing the Planet
> PostgreSQL one) listing 'Feature at a glance'. This would be a bullet
> point list, with links to further information where required - for
> example, to explain the benefits of MVCC or our Replication-in-core
> policy and external solutions.

Don't like this one if you're dropping planetpg ;-) And I don't think we
have room for much more.

> - Option 2 - Add a new horizontal panel under the announcement panel,
> and above the featured user, containing a 'How can PostgreSQL help me'
> link (or some other similar text), linking to a page bullet pointing the
> technical reasons, including the replication info.

This I like more. THe page itself would go under /about, I assume?

> - Option 3 - Add a 'Key Features' menu option to the grey banner,
> right-justified so it appears under the tagline in the banner. Link this
> to the same page described in option 2.

Uh, I'm not sure I get what you mean - you mean to the right of the word
"Support"? If so, then it should be left-justified, not right.

> Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas?

Maybe both 2 and 3? ;-)

What kind of page were you envisioning? One listing pure key features, or
something like Stefans feature-comparison list?
(http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php/Feature_Matrix)

//Magnus

Magnus Hagander wrote:

>> - Option 2 - Add a new horizontal panel under the announcement panel,
>> and above the featured user, containing a 'How can PostgreSQL help me'
>> link (or some other similar text), linking to a page bullet pointing the
>> technical reasons, including the replication info.
>
> This I like more. THe page itself would go under /about, I assume?
>
>
>> - Option 3 - Add a 'Key Features' menu option to the grey banner,
>> right-justified so it appears under the tagline in the banner. Link this
>> to the same page described in option 2.
>
> Uh, I'm not sure I get what you mean - you mean to the right of the word
> "Support"? If so, then it should be left-justified, not right.

The reason for right justifying it was to put it right under the 'The
world's most advanced Open Source Database' text. But I can see that
doesn't fit in with the whole concept of top and sub level menus.

>> Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas?
>
> Maybe both 2 and 3? ;-)
>
> What kind of page were you envisioning? One listing pure key features, or
> something like Stefans feature-comparison list?
> (http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php/Feature_Matrix)

A list of key features that any new dev can just scan through and tick
off their basic requirements from.

/D

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Dave Page wrote:
> I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again
> saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the
> lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about
> postgres these days.
>
> It seems to us (me and the guys in the office here) that there is
> nowhere on the front page of the website to see why we're the world's
> most advanced open source DB - in fact, you have to dive in to the About
> section and then find a bullet pointed list of features at the bottom of
> the Advantages page.
>
> In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features
> (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a
> more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with
> non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres.
>
> So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show
> people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses:

May I humbly suggest than instead of the below, we remove the book of
text that is /about with what you suggest? :) We really provide entirely
too much info in about that could be better put in something like
/about/extended or something.

Joshua D. Drake

>
> - Option 1 - Add a new vertical panel (perhaps replacing the Planet
> PostgreSQL one) listing 'Feature at a glance'. This would be a bullet
> point list, with links to further information where required - for
> example, to explain the benefits of MVCC or our Replication-in-core
> policy and external solutions.
>
> - Option 2 - Add a new horizontal panel under the announcement panel,
> and above the featured user, containing a 'How can PostgreSQL help me'
> link (or some other similar text), linking to a page bullet pointing the
> technical reasons, including the replication info.
>
> - Option 3 - Add a 'Key Features' menu option to the grey banner,
> right-justified so it appears under the tagline in the banner. Link this
> to the same page described in option 2.
>
> Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas?
>
> Regards, Dave
>
>
>
>
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>

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=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
UNIQUE NOT NULL
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Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
>> I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again
>> saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the
>> lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about
>> postgres these days.
>
>> It seems to us (me and the guys in the office here) that there is
>> nowhere on the front page of the website to see why we're the world's
>> most advanced open source DB - in fact, you have to dive in to the About
>> section and then find a bullet pointed list of features at the bottom of
>> the Advantages page.
>
>> In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features
>> (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a
>> more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with
>> non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres.
>
>> So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show
>> people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses:
>
> May I humbly suggest than instead of the below, we remove the book of
> text that is /about with what you suggest? :) We really provide entirely
> too much info in about that could be better put in something like
> /about/extended or something.

Yes, I'd be happy with that, but I still think it should be more
prominently linked form the front page. IF we can get some of the detail
there as well, even better - I'm really sick of hearing that we have no
replication!!!

/D

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Dave Page wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> Dave Page wrote:

>>> In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features
>>> (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a
>>> more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with
>>> non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres.
>>> So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show
>>> people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses:
>> May I humbly suggest than instead of the below, we remove the book of
>> text that is /about with what you suggest? :) We really provide entirely
>> too much info in about that could be better put in something like
>> /about/extended or something.
>
> Yes, I'd be happy with that, but I still think it should be more
> prominently linked form the front page. IF we can get some of the detail
> there as well, even better - I'm really sick of hearing that we have no
> replication!!!

Well considering the open sourcing of replicator and the fact that we
have: Slony, PITR (which is arguably replication) and a host of
statement based ones I would agree.

Joshua D. Drake

>
> /D
>

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
UNIQUE NOT NULL
Donate to the PostgreSQL Project: http://www.postgresql.org/about/donate
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On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 02:54:51PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > Dave Page wrote:
> >> I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again
> >> saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the
> >> lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about
> >> postgres these days.
> >
> >> It seems to us (me and the guys in the office here) that there is
> >> nowhere on the front page of the website to see why we're the world's
> >> most advanced open source DB - in fact, you have to dive in to the About
> >> section and then find a bullet pointed list of features at the bottom of
> >> the Advantages page.
> >
> >> In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features
> >> (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a
> >> more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with
> >> non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres.
> >
> >> So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show
> >> people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses:
> >
> > May I humbly suggest than instead of the below, we remove the book of
> > text that is /about with what you suggest? :) We really provide entirely
> > too much info in about that could be better put in something like
> > /about/extended or something.
>
> Yes, I'd be happy with that, but I still think it should be more
> prominently linked form the front page. IF we can get some of the detail
> there as well, even better - I'm really sick of hearing that we have no
> replication!!!

I think that sounds like a good idea - replace the page under /about with
something better *and* stick a more prominent link on the frontpage.

//Magnus

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Dave Page wrote:
>> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>>> Dave Page wrote:
>
>>>> In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features
>>>> (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a
>>>> more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with
>>>> non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres.
>>>> So, we had a couple of thoughts on how that can be improved to show
>>>> people quickly why they should choose our technology over anyone elses:
>>> May I humbly suggest than instead of the below, we remove the book of
>>> text that is /about with what you suggest? :) We really provide entirely
>>> too much info in about that could be better put in something like
>>> /about/extended or something.
>> Yes, I'd be happy with that, but I still think it should be more
>> prominently linked form the front page. IF we can get some of the detail
>> there as well, even better - I'm really sick of hearing that we have no
>> replication!!!
>
> Well considering the open sourcing of replicator and the fact that we
> have: Slony, PITR (which is arguably replication) and a host of
> statement based ones I would agree.

there is also
https://developer.skype.com/SkypeGarage/DbProjects/SkyTools/Londiste

Stefan

JD,

> Well considering the open sourcing of replicator and the fact that we
> have: Slony, PITR (which is arguably replication) and a host of
> statement based ones I would agree.

When did you OSS replicator?

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

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- --On Friday, August 10, 2007 08:47:55 -0700 Josh Berkus <josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com>
wrote:

> JD,
>
>> Well considering the open sourcing of replicator and the fact that we
>> have: Slony, PITR (which is arguably replication) and a host of
>> statement based ones I would agree.
>
> When did you OSS replicator?

Along with that, has someone written a comparison of the various methods?
Like, what does replicator give that Slony doesn't, or vice versa? Having
various solutions provides options, but also creates confusion ... the argument
is going to change from "PostgreSQL doesn't have replication" to "Oh my god,
which on should I use?" >:)

- ----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org MSN . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org
Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664
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Josh Berkus wrote:
> JD,
>
>> Well considering the open sourcing of replicator and the fact that we
>> have: Slony, PITR (which is arguably replication) and a host of
>> statement based ones I would agree.
>
> When did you OSS replicator?

Its coming, very, very soon.

Joshua D. Drake

- --

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
UNIQUE NOT NULL
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Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
>
> --On Friday, August 10, 2007 08:47:55 -0700 Josh Berkus <josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com>
> wrote:
>
>> JD,
>
>>> Well considering the open sourcing of replicator and the fact that we
>>> have: Slony, PITR (which is arguably replication) and a host of
>>> statement based ones I would agree.
>> When did you OSS replicator?
>
> Along with that, has someone written a comparison of the various methods?
> Like, what does replicator give that Slony doesn't, or vice versa? Having
> various solutions provides options, but also creates confusion ... the argument
> is going to change from "PostgreSQL doesn't have replication" to "Oh my god,
> which on should I use?" >:)

It's on its way ;)

>
>
> ----
> Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
> Email . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org MSN . scrappy(at)hub(dot)org
> Yahoo . yscrappy Skype: hub.org ICQ . 7615664

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=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/
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On Friday 10 August 2007 07:47, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 12:22:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> > I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again
> > saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the
> > lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about
> > postgres these days.
> >

Do you really think people dont know postgresql has replication? I find it
more that the general use of the term replication implies a built in
solution, which we do not have.

> > It seems to us (me and the guys in the office here) that there is
> > nowhere on the front page of the website to see why we're the world's
> > most advanced open source DB - in fact, you have to dive in to the About
> > section and then find a bullet pointed list of features at the bottom of
> > the Advantages page.
> >
> > In addition, the About page is very wordy, and describes a few features
> > (including GiST - no mention of GIN), whilst the Advantages page has a
> > more comprehensive list of features, but is mainly concerned with
> > non-technical 'market speak' reasons to use postgres.
> >
<snip>
> > - Option 2 - Add a new horizontal panel under the announcement panel,
> > and above the featured user, containing a 'How can PostgreSQL help me'
> > link (or some other similar text), linking to a page bullet pointing the
> > technical reasons, including the replication info.
>
> This I like more. THe page itself would go under /about, I assume?
>

Do we really need a third page? You'd think that somewhere between the about
page and the advantages pages, we'd have room to fit in the word replication
in somewhere. Or since you were thinking a new page, why not write up a new
about page? Surely the current one could use updating.

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

On 8/10/07, Robert Treat <xzilla(at)users(dot)sourceforge(dot)net> wrote:
> Do you really think people dont know postgresql has replication? I find it
> more that the general use of the term replication implies a built in
> solution, which we do not have.

It seems people on IRC are always asking if we have replication,
though typically it's expressed in language like "high-availability"
and "failover", and typically answered with questions along the lines
of "what do you need exactly?". Shortly thereafter in the ideal case,
the original questioner realizes that the painless, linearly scalable
multi-master replication he or she had in mind doesn't actually exist
in *any* database and he or she didn't really need it anyway. I'd love
to see a list of replication options along with pros and cons of each,
links to relevant documentation, etc.

Robert's original assertion, as I read it, is that people assume we
have a replication option built in to the extent that one can just
twiddle config options to make it work. Such a page as is being
discussed would not only demonstrate that we *do* have replication,
but it would make (more) obvious the fact that many of the neat things
one can do with PostgreSQL require adding on some additional software,
and further that adding modules is generally an easy thing to do. If
we can get more people more comfortable rolling their own system by
gluing packages together, by demonstrating that it's a very common
practice and they won't end up with an unsupportable monster if they
try, I believe we'll make a significant stride on the advocacy front.

- Josh

On Fri, 2007-08-10 at 13:32 -0400, Robert Treat wrote:
> On Friday 10 August 2007 07:47, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 12:22:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> > > I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once again
> > > saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except for the
> > > lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread FUD about
> > > postgres these days.
> > >
>
> Do you really think people dont know postgresql has replication? I find it
> more that the general use of the term replication implies a built in
> solution, which we do not have.

Every time I attend a trade show this is the #1 question:
"Do you have replication?"

We need to bear in mind that non-supporters of PostgreSQL are fairly
vocal about the "fact" that we "dont support replication".

--
Simon Riggs
EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com

On Monday 13 August 2007 13:06, Simon Riggs wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-08-10 at 13:32 -0400, Robert Treat wrote:
> > On Friday 10 August 2007 07:47, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2007 at 12:22:40PM +0100, Dave Page wrote:
> > > > I was reading the recent Slashdot thread on MySQL earlier and once
> > > > again saw a number of people saying they would use PostgreSQL except
> > > > for the lack of replication. This seems to me to be the widespread
> > > > FUD about postgres these days.
> >
> > Do you really think people dont know postgresql has replication? I find
> > it more that the general use of the term replication implies a built in
> > solution, which we do not have.
>
> Every time I attend a trade show this is the #1 question:
> "Do you have replication?"
>

I'm not denying the frequency of the question, but I've gotten that question
from people who did know about things like slony.

> We need to bear in mind that non-supporters of PostgreSQL are fairly
> vocal about the "fact" that we "dont support replication".

And these people surely know about things like slony. So we need to be
cognizant of this distinction people have with replication that is built-in
vs add-on solutions.

*shrug*

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

On Mon, 2007-08-13 at 15:13 -0400, Robert Treat wrote:

> And these people surely know about things like slony.

Well, I don't believe that 100% of people who ask about replication know
about Slony, but then I accept it isn't 0% either.

My guess is its somewhere in the range 5-50%. And I would bet many of
those are fairly confused about what Slony is and what it can do.

That still leaves lots of people without even the first clue about HA
for PostgreSQL.

--
Simon Riggs
EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com

On Mon, 2007-08-13 at 18:06 +0100, Simon Riggs wrote:
> > Do you really think people dont know postgresql has replication? I find it
> > more that the general use of the term replication implies a built in
> > solution, which we do not have.
>
> Every time I attend a trade show this is the #1 question:
> "Do you have replication?"
>

If Florian's work with readable PITR slaves succeeds, will that give
everyone a better answer to that question?

Regards,
Jeff Davis

On Mon, August 13, 2007 11:34 pm, Jeff Davis wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-08-13 at 18:06 +0100, Simon Riggs wrote:
>> > Do you really think people dont know postgresql has replication? I
>> find it
>> > more that the general use of the term replication implies a built in
>> > solution, which we do not have.
>>
>> Every time I attend a trade show this is the #1 question:
>> "Do you have replication?"
>>
>
> If Florian's work with readable PITR slaves succeeds, will that give
> everyone a better answer to that question?

It'll certainly help, but my aim here is education on what we do have -
namely a whole bunch of different add-on solutions which can work well in
production.

/D

Robert Treat schrieb:
...
>> We need to bear in mind that non-supporters of PostgreSQL are fairly
>> vocal about the "fact" that we "dont support replication".
>
> And these people surely know about things like slony. So we need to be
> cognizant of this distinction people have with replication that is built-in
> vs add-on solutions.

Thats true as well as for example Oracle has also built in replication
(well, actually its an add-on sold separately) but even this is rarely
used. Instead many people seem to favour 3rd party solutions with a
nicer price tag and better reputation.

Things we absolutely have and most, if not all our competitors don't
is for example fully transactional DDL.

Regards
Tino