Re: Status of funds.postgresql.org?

What is the status of funds.postgresql.org?
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: pgsql-www-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org
> [mailto:pgsql-www-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org] On Behalf Of Joshua D. Drake
> Sent: 13 September 2006 23:51
> To: PostgreSQL WWW
> Subject: [pgsql-www] Status of funds.postgresql.org?
>
> What is the status of funds.postgresql.org?

I don't recall it ever being asked for. Why would we need another
subsite anyway? What wrong with using <gasp> www.postgresql.org?

/D

Dave,

> I don't recall it ever being asked for. Why would we need another
> subsite anyway? What wrong with using <gasp> www.postgresql.org?

'cause the Funds Group needs somewhere to park a CMS.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

There was a foundations.postgresql.org request time ago, confusion perhaps?

g.-

On 9/14/06, Josh Berkus <josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:
> Dave,
>
> > I don't recall it ever being asked for. Why would we need another
> > subsite anyway? What wrong with using <gasp> www.postgresql.org?
>
> 'cause the Funds Group needs somewhere to park a CMS.
>
> --
> Josh Berkus
> PostgreSQL @ Sun
> San Francisco
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--
Guido Barosio
-----------------------
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guido(dot)barosio(at)globant(dot)com

We have had foundation.postgresql.org but since that has changed the
request was put in for funds.postgresql.org to put up a new site that
more clearly represents what the group has transitioned to.

Gavin

On Sep 14, 2006, at 1:46 PM, Guido Barosio wrote:

> There was a foundations.postgresql.org request time ago, confusion
> perhaps?
>
> g.-
>
> On 9/14/06, Josh Berkus <josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> wrote:
>> Dave,
>>
>> > I don't recall it ever being asked for. Why would we need another
>> > subsite anyway? What wrong with using <gasp> www.postgresql.org?
>>
>> 'cause the Funds Group needs somewhere to park a CMS.
>>
>> --
>> Josh Berkus
>> PostgreSQL @ Sun
>> San Francisco
>>
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>> broadcast)---------------------------
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>>
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>>
>
>
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> Guido Barosio
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Josh Berkus wrote:
> 'cause the Funds Group needs somewhere to park a CMS.

Why does the Funds Group need a separate CMS?

--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/

Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Josh Berkus wrote:
>> 'cause the Funds Group needs somewhere to park a CMS.
>
> Why does the Funds Group need a separate CMS?
>

Several reasons:

1. Storing of private donation records for reference between officer to
officer
2. Storing of publicized project ideas and plans
3. Dealing with web votes

Neither of these are www suitable for.

Joshua D. Drake

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>>> 'cause the Funds Group needs somewhere to park a CMS.
>>
>> Why does the Funds Group need a separate CMS?
>>
>
>Several reasons:
>
>1. Storing of private donation records for reference between
>officer to officer

How is this a feature of a CMS? That sounds more like the feature of a
database.. (hey, we have one of those!)

>2. Storing of publicized project ideas and plans

That's kind of what www does good now, no?

>3. Dealing with web votes

I don't see how that's a specific CMS feature either. BTW, we do have a
working survey system on the website now, which does pretty much that.
It's not really use dbecause nobody posts new surveys, but it works.

//Magnus

On Fri, Sep 15, 2006 at 10:39:00AM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote:
> I don't see how that's a specific CMS feature either. BTW, we do have a
> working survey system on the website now, which does pretty much that.
> It's not really use dbecause nobody posts new surveys, but it works.

The voting for the fundraising group needs to be authenticated. Can
the current system do that?

A

--
Andrew Sullivan | ajs(at)crankycanuck(dot)ca
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November.
--H.W. Fowler

Magnus Hagander wrote:
>>>> 'cause the Funds Group needs somewhere to park a CMS.
>>> Why does the Funds Group need a separate CMS?
>>>
>> Several reasons:
>>
>> 1. Storing of private donation records for reference between
>> officer to officer
>
> How is this a feature of a CMS? That sounds more like the feature of a
> database.. (hey, we have one of those!)

Going to ignore this.

>
>
>> 2. Storing of publicized project ideas and plans
>
> That's kind of what www does good now, no?
>

No, it doesn't. The funds group CMS is meant to be more of an intranet.

>
>> 3. Dealing with web votes
>
> I don't see how that's a specific CMS feature either. BTW, we do have a
> working survey system on the website now, which does pretty much that.
> It's not really use dbecause nobody posts new surveys, but it works.

Votes are private and must be authenticated. The funds groups already
has code for this.

Joshua D. Drake

>
>
> //Magnus
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Magnus,

Look, it's pretty simple. Members of the Funds Group want to manage our
own web stuff. We find that the www.postgresql.org system doesn't
provide us with the features we need to manage our own stuff easily, and
that other systems (e.g. Framewerk) do.

We did the same for conference.postgresql.org, and it worked great.

I really don't see why every request for web stuff needs to become a
turf battle.

--Josh Berkus

Josh Berkus wrote:
> Magnus,
>
> Look, it's pretty simple. Members of the Funds Group want to manage our
> own web stuff. We find that the www.postgresql.org system doesn't
> provide us with the features we need to manage our own stuff easily, and
> that other systems (e.g. Framewerk) do.
>
> We did the same for conference.postgresql.org, and it worked great.
>
> I really don't see why every request for web stuff needs to become a
> turf battle.

I stand corrected on this. Here is the run down:

JoshB asked for spi.postgresql.org
JoshD asked that it not be spi.postgresql.org

JoshB and JoshD agreed that fundraising.postgresql.org would be acceptable.

There was general rambling about some other names including keeping
thepostgresqlfoundation.org.

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2006-08/msg00075.php

Later the funds. name appeared.

What this really comes down to those is the above. The funds group wants
a place to do their work. A CMS that the funds group controls is better
suited to the task.

So now that we have all spent time on this can we please either:

A. create funds.postgresql.org
B. create fundraising.postgresql.org

And point it to:

http://foundation.zaius.ehpg.net/

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh Berkus [mailto:josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com]
> Sent: 15 September 2006 18:40
> To: Magnus Hagander
> Cc: Joshua D. Drake; Peter Eisentraut;
> pgsql-www(at)postgresql(dot)org; Dave Page
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Status of funds.postgresql.org?
>
> Magnus,
>
> Look, it's pretty simple. Members of the Funds Group want to
> manage our
> own web stuff. We find that the www.postgresql.org system doesn't
> provide us with the features we need to manage our own stuff
> easily, and
> that other systems (e.g. Framewerk) do.
>
> We did the same for conference.postgresql.org, and it worked great.
>
> I really don't see why every request for web stuff needs to become a
> turf battle.

It's not a turf battle - it's about the fact that a number of years ago,
it was agreed that we would consolidate and merge all the subsites that
had sprung up whereever reasonable to do so. That's why advocacy went,
why developer went, why odbc went, and why techdocs is in the process of
going. Anyone who has worked hard towards that aim, or just agreed with
the strategy is naturally going to want some seriously good
justification to backtrack and create another new site in the
postgresql.org domain.

Regards, Dave.

> It's not a turf battle - it's about the fact that a number of years ago,
> it was agreed that we would consolidate and merge all the subsites that
> had sprung up whereever reasonable to do so. That's why advocacy went,
> why developer went, why odbc went,

?? odbc.postgresql.org jumps to pgfoundry.

Then there is:

pgadmin
jdbc
pmt
jabber
archives
search

> going. Anyone who has worked hard towards that aim, or just agreed with
> the strategy is naturally going to want some seriously good
> justification to backtrack and create another new site in the
> postgresql.org domain.
>
> Regards, Dave.

Dave,

You are on the funds group. You know the stuff we will be keeping track
of and the discussions we will be having. Why is this even a problem?
Why is this even a discussion?

Joshua D. Drake

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com]
> Sent: 15 September 2006 20:56
> To: Dave Page
> Cc: Josh Berkus; Magnus Hagander; Peter Eisentraut;
> pgsql-www(at)postgresql(dot)org
> Subject: Re: [pgsql-www] Status of funds.postgresql.org?
>
>
> > It's not a turf battle - it's about the fact that a number
> of years ago,
> > it was agreed that we would consolidate and merge all the
> subsites that
> > had sprung up whereever reasonable to do so. That's why
> advocacy went,
> > why developer went, why odbc went,
>
> ?? odbc.postgresql.org jumps to pgfoundry.

Yes, because the old site has now gone.

>
> pgadmin

www.pgadmin.org. Pgadmin.postgresql.org hasn't been advertised for many,
many years.

> jdbc

The JDBC folks didn't want to lose their site, and we weren't going to
force them to do so.

> pmt

Not a public site.

> jabber

Not a website.

> archives

Not something that can be merged into the main site without extreme pain
and breakage of a helluva lot of published URLs.

> search

Part of the main site, but on a separate server for reasons of which you
are perfectly aware.

>
> You are on the funds group. You know the stuff we will be
> keeping track
> of and the discussions we will be having. Why is this even a problem?
> Why is this even a discussion?

It's not a problem for me. In my two posts on the subject I have:

- asked when funds.postgresql.org asked for and what was it for.

- Explained why Magnus (who isn't on the funds group) might be dubious
about adding a new site on what appears to -www to be a single request
from you (ie. Not something that has been discussed).

Regards, Dave.

> - Explained why Magnus (who isn't on the funds group) might be dubious
> about adding a new site on what appears to -www to be a single request
> from you (ie. Not something that has been discussed).

Well it is the continuation of a request from Berkus see previous email
:) but o.k. fair enough.

Joshua D. Drake

>
> Regards, Dave.
>

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Dave, Josh,

> > going. Anyone who has worked hard towards that aim, or just agreed
> > with the strategy is naturally going to want some seriously good
> > justification to backtrack and create another new site in the
> > postgresql.org domain.

Sure, and I agree with the consolidation goal in general. Heck, I wish
that www.postgresql.org supported more CMS services so that we could
collapse some of the existing subdomains.

However, there seems to be a difference of opinion as to what constitutes
"justification." Establishing with us that we need an authenticated
voting interface, and easy content management for stuff like donor
information and meeting minutes, is justification.

Members of this list trying to argue that we don't really need any of these
things and can live without them goes way beyond justification and slides
into "running the gauntlet". It's a very frustrating experience, when one
is trying to set something up in time which is already inadequate.

> ?? odbc.postgresql.org jumps to pgfoundry.
>
> Then there is:
>
> pgadmin
> jdbc
> pmt
> jabber
> archives
> search

Well, Josh, that actually support's Dave's argument. We have too many
already.

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

Dave,

> - Explained why Magnus (who isn't on the funds group) might be dubious
> about adding a new site on what appears to -www to be a single request
> from you (ie. Not something that has been discussed).

Actually, this was discussed about a month ago. Search the archives on
"spi.postgresql.org". The only hold-up was a question of what the actual
name of the domain would be.

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

Josh Berkus <josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com> writes:
> However, there seems to be a difference of opinion as to what constitutes
> "justification." Establishing with us that we need an authenticated
> voting interface, and easy content management for stuff like donor
> information and meeting minutes, is justification.

Um ... how does "we need service X" translate to "we need service X to
be provided on a new hostname rather than www.postgresql.org"? Maybe
I'm missing something, but I thought the objection was to hostname
proliferation not service proliferation.

regards, tom lane

Tom,

> Um ... how does "we need service X" translate to "we need service X to
> be provided on a new hostname rather than www.postgresql.org"? Maybe
> I'm missing something, but I thought the objection was to hostname
> proliferation not service proliferation.

Hey, if we can host a cms with the features we need at
www.postgresql.org/community/fundraising, then I'm for it. I was under
the impression that that was techincally infeasable.

--
--Josh

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL @ Sun
San Francisco

On Fri, 15 Sep 2006, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> So now that we have all spent time on this can we please either:
>
> A. create funds.postgresql.org
> B. create fundraising.postgresql.org
>
> And point it to:
>
> http://foundation.zaius.ehpg.net/

This was all I needed ... I pointed both at that URL ... that way either
can be used ...

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Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>
>> So now that we have all spent time on this can we please either:
>>
>> A. create funds.postgresql.org
>> B. create fundraising.postgresql.org
>>
>> And point it to:
>>
>> http://foundation.zaius.ehpg.net/
>
> This was all I needed ... I pointed both at that URL ... that way either
> can be used ...

Thank you.

Joshua D. Drake

>
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> Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
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As some of you know, I've been out of the country and thus not answering
all the emails in a thread. Which may be a good thing, really :-P

Anyway. Going to answer the factual questions only, don't want to
re-iterate the debate you've had already. Just facts for future
situations.

> > I don't see how that's a specific CMS feature either. BTW,
> we do have
> > a working survey system on the website now, which does
> pretty much that.
> > It's not really use dbecause nobody posts new surveys, but it works.
>
> The voting for the fundraising group needs to be
> authenticated. Can the current system do that?

Today, no. Less than 10 minutes work to make it do it though, since we
already have an authentication framework that just needs to be enabled.

Related question (ok, so I don't just have aswers, so sue me): Will the
funds CMS integrate with the existing authentication system, or will
users be required to sign up for more than one account?

//Magnus

Tom Lane wrote:
> Um ... how does "we need service X" translate to "we need service X
> to be provided on a new hostname rather than www.postgresql.org"?
> Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought the objection was to
> hostname proliferation not service proliferation.

I'm wondering not only about hostnames but about hosts. Who is going to
manage these boxes?

--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/

Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
>> Um ... how does "we need service X" translate to "we need service X
>> to be provided on a new hostname rather than www.postgresql.org"?
>> Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought the objection was to
>> hostname proliferation not service proliferation.
>
> I'm wondering not only about hostnames but about hosts. Who is going to
> manage these boxes?

Which boxes? I can tell you that the following machines are managed:

pmt
jabber
search
archives

Directly by CMD or CMD + Community (archives is cmd only)

We also help in the administration of pgfoundry

funds/fundraising is managed by Gavin and I have shell access to
the funds account so I can perform offsite backups and site maintenance.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

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