Re: PostgreSQL giving jitters to Skypak

Dear all,

This story is a blow for PostgreSQL

http://www.cxotoday.com/cxo/jsp/index.jsp?log=false&file=template1.jsp&section_code=1&section=News&storyid=1383&subsection_code=1&subsection=Business&source=cxtnl&userid=aspire420(at)hotpop(dot)com

thoughts ?

Best Regards,
Vishal Kashyap

> This story is a blow for PostgreSQL
>
> http://www.cxotoday.com/cxo/jsp/index.jsp?log=false&file=template1.jsp&section_code=1&section=News&storyid=1383&subsection_code=1&subsection=Business&source=cxtnl&userid=aspire420(at)hotpop(dot)com

> thoughts ?

Excellent news.

The whole article is centred around a company moving away from
PostgreSQL to a vendor which they have not chosen at this point.

A whole article! It's not an article about a company choosing to DB2 or
MSSQL with a mention that they were using "an Opensource database" or
even a final comment stating that they have used PostgreSQL in the past
-- but a whole article around a company moving away from PostgreSQL.

You'll notice they mention "new database platform", which the author of
the piece implies will include both hardware and software. I bet Oracle
on a Quad Opteron and 8GB ram could beat the pants of PostgreSQL on a
Dual Xeon with 1GB ram ;)

Their qmail based mail solution is on a single Dell 1750 -- which also
deserved a mention for some reason.

Welcome to the big leagues -- we're making headlines on fluff pieces.

Vishal,

> This story is a blow for PostgreSQL
>
> http://www.cxotoday.com/cxo/jsp/index.jsp?log=false&file=template1.jsp&sect
>ion_code=1&section=News&storyid=1383&subsection_code=1&subsection=Business&s
>ource=cxtnl&userid=aspire420(at)hotpop(dot)com

Can you or someone else in India contact them? Shridhar?

The do not have an e-mail address for contact, just phone.
http://www.skypakindia.com/location.htm

I suspect that was the problem with their use of PostgreSQL. If they're not
inclined to use the internet much, then they'd be totally unaware of where to
get help.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Folks,

Aha! I found e-mail for the company. Sent to their VP of IT.

A copy of the message is below my .sig. HOWEVER, please do be aware that
there is likely a great deal more to the story than the article presents;
Skypak may be thinking of switching away from PostgreSQL for reasons that
have nothing to do with actual performance. For example, they may be using
it on Cygwin; you'll notice that the article doesn't mention a platform.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

=================================

Mr. Warnekar,

We in the postgresql community were distrubed to read of your company's rather
public repudation of PostgreSQL. Much more so because nobody in our active
online community of developers -- including a number of Indians -- was aware
that you were using PostgreSQL, let alone that you had problems with it.

Was your staff aware that a great deal of expert, peer-to-peer help for
PostgreSQL is available online? Were your problems raised on the
PGSQL-PERFORMANCE e-mailing list or elsewhere?

I spend quite a bit of time tuning PostgreSQL professionally for clients in
the United States; it is how I support my participation in the Project. I
find it somewhat hard to believe that PostgreSQL would not perform well under
the loads you descibe in the article.

Please consider sharing your issues with the community; I'm sure it would be
cheaper to solve your performance problems with PostgreSQL than to port to
another system. I look forward to hearing from you.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Core Team
http://advocacy.postgresql.org
San Francisco

Dear Josh ,

>>http://www.cxotoday.com/cxo/jsp/index.jsp?log=false&file=template1.jsp&sect
>>ion_code=1&section=News&storyid=1383&subsection_code=1&subsection=Business&s
>>ource=cxtnl&userid=aspire420(at)hotpop(dot)com
>>
>>
>
>Can you or someone else in India contact them? Shridhar?
>
>
>
I would do this and following is the list of questions I would be asking
on the same time I would request others to add more ,

1. Vacuum usage
2. postgresql.conf settings used (I am not a pro in this field)
3. OS used its not clear if PostgreSQL is on non windows platform.
4. I myself am not aware of any consultants in India that can provide
PostgreSQL optimization.

Others are requested to add more questions I would be calling on 27
August 2004, on the following number
22-28508181

Best Regards,
Vishal Kashyap

Vishal,

> I would do this and following is the list of questions I would be asking
> on the same time I would request others to add more ,
>
> 1. Vacuum usage
> 2. postgresql.conf settings used (I am not a pro in this field)
> 3. OS used its not clear if PostgreSQL is on non windows platform.
> 4. I myself am not aware of any consultants in India that can provide
> PostgreSQL optimization.
>
> Others are requested to add more questions I would be calling on 27
> August 2004, on the following number
> 22-28508181

This all sounds good. Let's wait a couple of days to see how they respond to
the e-mail.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

Vishal,

OK, looks like you should contact them by phone. The e-mail addresses on
their web site are apparently out of date.

Please read the letter I wrote as a guidline.

I'd actually prefer that you call them tommorrow, if possible. See if you
can reach Shridhar as well. If they are unresponsive, I will need to
contact other publications to do some damage control, and sooner is better
than later.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 11:52 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
> Vishal,
>
> OK, looks like you should contact them by phone. The e-mail addresses on
> their web site are apparently out of date.
>

Well,

service(at)skypakindia(dot)com seems to be their advertised contact address.
It's the address for customer service as well as signing up as a
reseller. A message sent there, addressed to the manager of IT or
Suresh Chaudhary, would likely be forwarded to the proper person.

-Steve

Rod Taylor wrote:
> Welcome to the big leagues -- we're making headlines on fluff pieces.

Yeah, and evidently floating rumours that you're dropping PostgreSQL
will immediately get you free help. :)

--
Peter Eisentraut
http://developer.postgresql.org/~petere/

Dear All,

>
> This story is a blow for PostgreSQL
>
> http://www.cxotoday.com/cxo/jsp/index.jsp?log=false&file=template1.jsp&section_code=1&section=News&storyid=1383&subsection_code=1&subsection=Business&source=cxtnl&userid=aspire420(at)hotpop(dot)com
>

As promised following is the list of questions I am going to ask the
tech team of Skypak

1. Version PostgreSQL
2. OS and it's version.
3. Indexes, and what the structure of the database is. Missing an index
or two can affect.
4. Type of hard drive interface, the drive(s) capacity and utilization
and the size of the database.

Not only this I will request them to post their queries to mailing list.
Some apprihensions I have
1. I doubt they have any tech team.
2. Their website as per the Whois records is also not managed by them
3. If they do have a tech team they are M$ savvy as is ver much relevant
from their website headers.

--
With Best Regards,
Vishal Kashyap.
Yahoo IM : coeb_college(at)yahoo(dot)com
Director / Lead Software Developer,
Sai Hertz And Control Systems Pvt Ltd.
http://saihertz.com

On Thu, 2004-08-26 at 06:53 +0530, V i s h a l Kashyap @ [Sai Hertz And
Control Systems] wrote:
> Dear All,
>
> >
> > This story is a blow for PostgreSQL
> >
> > http://www.cxotoday.com/cxo/jsp/index.jsp?log=false&file=template1.jsp&section_code=1&section=News&storyid=1383&subsection_code=1&subsection=Business&source=cxtnl&userid=aspire420(at)hotpop(dot)com
> >

I have not seen any further activity on this. I was expecting to see
something either here or on PERFORM by now.

Just wondering if I missed something.

It would be nice if this story had a happy ending due to "Online
Assistance from PostgreSQL Experts Across the Globe" or some such. ;-)

-Steve Bergman

On Thursday 02 Sep 2004 9:08 pm, Steve Bergman wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-08-26 at 06:53 +0530, V i s h a l Kashyap @ [Sai Hertz And
>
> Control Systems] wrote:
> > Dear All,
> >
> > > This story is a blow for PostgreSQL
> > >
> > > http://www.cxotoday.com/cxo/jsp/index.jsp?log=false&file=template1.jsp&
> > >section_code=1&section=News&storyid=1383&subsection_code=1&subsection=Bu
> > >siness&source=cxtnl&userid=aspire420(at)hotpop(dot)com
>
> I have not seen any further activity on this. I was expecting to see
> something either here or on PERFORM by now.

Well, we gave them really basic suggestions on performance tuning and they
seem to have gone well.

> Just wondering if I missed something.

No, not much. Vishal is in touch with the concerned person. The person was
unavailable early part of this week. So we do not have concrete results of
tuning as yet. Besides I understand that the company is doing many other
things in addition to posgresql tuning, with a limited manpower. So things
are bit slow to trickle.

> It would be nice if this story had a happy ending due to "Online
> Assistance from PostgreSQL Experts Across the Globe" or some such. ;-)

Definitely it would be that way. However it will take some time to reach it
there. Certainly we do not want to show that we offered to help but have not
much results to show, Do we?

Of course, We will persue them further to get it done ASAP.

Shridhar

On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 21:27 +0530, Shridhar Daithankar wrote:

>
> Definitely it would be that way. However it will take some time to reach it
> there. Certainly we do not want to show that we offered to help but have not
> much results to show, Do we?
>

Thanks. Sounds like things are going as well as can be expected.

-Steve Bergman

Steve

>>>http://www.cxotoday.com/cxo/jsp/index.jsp?log=false&file=template1.jsp&section_code=1&section=News&storyid=1383&subsection_code=1&subsection=Business&source=cxtnl&userid=aspire420(at)hotpop(dot)com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>I have not seen any further activity on this. I was expecting to see
>something either here or on PERFORM by now.
>
>
>
I had telecon with the responsible person at Skypak . They are still
with PostgreSQL and are using servises from
Shridhar , Josh to solve their some problems.

>It would be nice if this story had a happy ending due to "Online
>Assistance from PostgreSQL Experts Across the Globe" or some such. ;-)
>
It is more of a happy ending we are pushing them to give a follow up
experience to some other respectable publication, In india.

--
With Best Regards,
Vishal Kashyap.
Yahoo IM : coeb_college(at)yahoo(dot)com
Director / Lead Software Developer,
Sai Hertz And Control Systems Pvt Ltd.
http://saihertz.com

On Fri, 2004-09-03 at 20:57, V i s h a l Kashyap @ [Sai Hertz And
Control Systems] wrote:
> Steve
>
> >>>http://www.cxotoday.com/cxo/jsp/index.jsp?log=false&file=template1.jsp&section_code=1&section=News&storyid=1383&subsection_code=1&subsection=Business&source=cxtnl&userid=aspire420(at)hotpop(dot)com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >I have not seen any further activity on this. I was expecting to see
> >something either here or on PERFORM by now.
> >
> >
> >
> I had telecon with the responsible person at Skypak . They are still
> with PostgreSQL and are using servises from
> Shridhar , Josh to solve their some problems.
>
> >It would be nice if this story had a happy ending due to "Online
> >Assistance from PostgreSQL Experts Across the Globe" or some such. ;-)
> >
> It is more of a happy ending we are pushing them to give a follow up
> experience to some other respectable publication, In india.

Any chance we can get cxotoday to post a followup article about how the
postgresql community contacted the company and helped them fix their
problems?

On Saturday 04 Sep 2004 10:16 am, Scott Marlowe wrote:
> Any chance we can get cxotoday to post a followup article about how the
> postgresql community contacted the company and helped them fix their
> problems?

We have reasons to believe that some other publication would be a better
choice.

I tried contacting PC Quest, India but they have not responded in last three
days. I need to follow up bit more.

Shridhar

On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 02:19, Shridhar Daithankar wrote:
> On Saturday 04 Sep 2004 10:16 am, Scott Marlowe wrote:
> > Any chance we can get cxotoday to post a followup article about how the
> > postgresql community contacted the company and helped them fix their
> > problems?
>
> We have reasons to believe that some other publication would be a better
> choice.
>
> I tried contacting PC Quest, India but they have not responded in last three
> days. I need to follow up bit more.

I believe no other publication could be better since a) no other
publication would have the same impact as the original one that posted
the "hit piece" and b) the same audience may not be reached by another
publication. However, I'm aware of the other possible arguments against
publishing in cxotoday. Specifically, the original piece came across as
a hackish attack with little or no research done on the part of the
author other than to overhear a lunchtime conversation about how
PostgreSQL just wasn't cutting it somewhere. However, it may be that
this experience, and the telling of it to said author would be an eye
opening experience for him (or her, I didn't really check.)

I certainly believe that whoever publishes this story should reference
the original one, and the incredibly professional way the postgresql
community has handled it.

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004, Scott Marlowe wrote:

> On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 02:19, Shridhar Daithankar wrote:
>> On Saturday 04 Sep 2004 10:16 am, Scott Marlowe wrote:
>>> Any chance we can get cxotoday to post a followup article about how the
>>> postgresql community contacted the company and helped them fix their
>>> problems?
>>
>> We have reasons to believe that some other publication would be a better
>> choice.
>>
>> I tried contacting PC Quest, India but they have not responded in last three
>> days. I need to follow up bit more.
>
> I believe no other publication could be better since a) no other
> publication would have the same impact as the original one that posted
> the "hit piece" and b) the same audience may not be reached by another
> publication. However, I'm aware of the other possible arguments against
> publishing in cxotoday. Specifically, the original piece came across as
> a hackish attack with little or no research done on the part of the
> author other than to overhear a lunchtime conversation about how
> PostgreSQL just wasn't cutting it somewhere. However, it may be that
> this experience, and the telling of it to said author would be an eye
> opening experience for him (or her, I didn't really check.)
>
> I certainly believe that whoever publishes this story should reference
> the original one, and the incredibly professional way the postgresql
> community has handled it.

Stupid question, but could this backfire on us?

Here is a company in India that complained about the atrocious performance
PostgreSQL was giving them, they complained vocally about it, and "the
community" jumped to the rescue? Are we going to jump the rescue of the
next one too? Are we setting a potentially bad precedent by advertising
that "if you yell loud enough, we'll focus our attentions on you"?

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy(at)hub(dot)org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

Scott, Marc,

> I believe no other publication could be better since a) no other
> publication would have the same impact as the original one that posted
> the "hit piece" and b) the same audience may not be reached by another
> publication.

As you guessed, we have already contacted CXOToday, and researched the
background of both the publication and the reporter (thanks Simon!). Based
on both research and our interaction with the reporter, we do not believe
that any story from us would receive fair treatement.

> Here is a company in India that complained about the atrocious performance
> PostgreSQL was giving them, they complained vocally about it, and "the
> community" jumped to the rescue? Are we going to jump the rescue of the
> next one too? Are we setting a potentially bad precedent by advertising
> that "if you yell loud enough, we'll focus our attentions on you"?

We won't be giving them any help they couldn't otherwise get simply by
subscribing to PGSQL-PERFORMANCE or jumping on IRC.

The reason that Skypak ended up in trouble is that they are NOT interent-saavy
at all; their installation of PostgreSQL was put in by an apparently
less-than-competent constulant who then disappeared when they ran into
problems (at least, according to Skypak). So they were completely unaware
of the existence of postgresql.org, the mailing lists, or online
documentation. I, personally, don't have any problem giving them some help
in getting connected with these resources -- the same as I do for about 10
people a day who contact me through advocacy.postgresql.org or
press(at)postgresql(dot)org(dot)

Also, I think I can get a good news story out of it, which is worth a little
effort.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004, Josh Berkus wrote:

> Scott, Marc,
>
>> I believe no other publication could be better since a) no other
>> publication would have the same impact as the original one that posted
>> the "hit piece" and b) the same audience may not be reached by another
>> publication.
>
> As you guessed, we have already contacted CXOToday, and researched the
> background of both the publication and the reporter (thanks Simon!). Based
> on both research and our interaction with the reporter, we do not believe
> that any story from us would receive fair treatement.
>
>> Here is a company in India that complained about the atrocious performance
>> PostgreSQL was giving them, they complained vocally about it, and "the
>> community" jumped to the rescue? Are we going to jump the rescue of the
>> next one too? Are we setting a potentially bad precedent by advertising
>> that "if you yell loud enough, we'll focus our attentions on you"?
>
> We won't be giving them any help they couldn't otherwise get simply by
> subscribing to PGSQL-PERFORMANCE or jumping on IRC.
>
> The reason that Skypak ended up in trouble is that they are NOT interent-saavy
> at all; their installation of PostgreSQL was put in by an apparently
> less-than-competent constulant who then disappeared when they ran into
> problems (at least, according to Skypak). So they were completely unaware
> of the existence of postgresql.org, the mailing lists, or online
> documentation. I, personally, don't have any problem giving them some help
> in getting connected with these resources -- the same as I do for about 10
> people a day who contact me through advocacy.postgresql.org or
> press(at)postgresql(dot)org(dot)
>
> Also, I think I can get a good news story out of it, which is worth a little
> effort.

Agreed ... the only concern I have is the way that they went about getting
that help ... the whole 'pre-article' and all that ... the whole thing
just has a feel of 'if I cry loud enough, someone might come along and fix
it for me' ... its the public denounciation, followed by us rushing to his
aid, that puts the hairs up on the back of my neck *shrug*

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy(at)hub(dot)org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

On 4 Sep 2004 at 11:49, Josh Berkus wrote:

> As you guessed, we have already contacted CXOToday, and researched the
> background of both the publication and the reporter (thanks Simon!). Based
> on both research and our interaction with the reporter, we do not believe
> that any story from us would receive fair treatement.

That conclusion is supported by the opening sentences in the article
in question. I got the impression they were anti open source.

--
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/

On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 16:03 -0300, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

> Agreed ... the only concern I have is the way that they went about getting
> that help ... the whole 'pre-article' and all that ... the whole thing
> just has a feel of 'if I cry loud enough, someone might come along and fix
> it for me' ... its the public denounciation, followed by us rushing to his
> aid, that puts the hairs up on the back of my neck *shrug*
>

If they had come to the lists with their problems, not solved them, and
then denounced loudly, I'd agree. In this case it sounds like a
consultant set it up, didn't do any tuning and left, and they were left
with something that wasn't working well for them and were frustrated,
and possibly angry. Different situation, really.

Fortunately, they are getting assistance and hopefully they'll come away
happy and sing praises to the world. ;-)

What bothers me more is the idea of having an actively PostgreSQL-
hostile journalist at CXOToday.

-Steve Bergman

Steve,

> What bothers me more is the idea of having an actively PostgreSQL-
> hostile journalist at CXOToday.

I wouldn't worry about it. CXOToday is probably India's least popular online
tech magazine. Witness how NO other news services have picked up the story.

As we get more successful, we can expect to make "enemies". In that regard,
we're moving in the right direction; we've been mending fences with MySQL and
are starting to draw heat from Oracle and DB2 (and I'll bet that MS will
trash us after the Windows release). These are the people we want to see
angry with us in print because it means that we're a threat to their
business.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco