Re: CVS changes

I take that back. I just updated this last night with the proper path.
Should be OK tomorrow.

> > Since there have been drastic CVS changes, the web page doc should REALLY
> > be updated...
>
> I updated the SGML but they are not building nightly, I think.
>
> --
> Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
> pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
> + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
> + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Bruce Momjian writes:

> I take that back. I just updated this last night with the proper path.
> Should be OK tomorrow.

The docs currently aren't building on *.postgresql.org because the
software is not installed.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter

Someone want to refresh for me which software is required, as I'll get it
installed ASAP ...

On Sun, 23 Sep 2001, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Bruce Momjian writes:
>
> > I take that back. I just updated this last night with the proper path.
> > Should be OK tomorrow.
>
> The docs currently aren't building on *.postgresql.org because the
> software is not installed.
>
> --
> Peter Eisentraut peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>

Marc G. Fournier writes:

> Someone want to refresh for me which software is required, as I'll get it
> installed ASAP ...

These would get us started:

devel/bison
textproc/docproj
textproc/openjade

I tried building OpenJade on that server the other day by hand and got Bus
errors when I ran it. -- So no guarantees. ;-)

Btw., this may be unrelated but I also notice that the last
postgresql-{opt,test}-snapshot.tar.gz files on the ftp mirrors are from
July 5. The others seem to be up to date.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter

try that ... all three are now installed ...

On Mon, 24 Sep 2001, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Marc G. Fournier writes:
>
> > Someone want to refresh for me which software is required, as I'll get it
> > installed ASAP ...
>
> These would get us started:
>
> devel/bison
> textproc/docproj
> textproc/openjade
>
> I tried building OpenJade on that server the other day by hand and got Bus
> errors when I ran it. -- So no guarantees. ;-)
>
> Btw., this may be unrelated but I also notice that the last
> postgresql-{opt,test}-snapshot.tar.gz files on the ftp mirrors are from
> July 5. The others seem to be up to date.
>
> --
> Peter Eisentraut peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter
>
>

I've built the docs on cvs.postgresql.org, but where are the ftp and www
areas these days and how does one get stuff onto them?

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter

just about to be moved to the new server, now that the new 18gi drive has
been installed ... plan on getting that done this afternoon ...

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> I've built the docs on cvs.postgresql.org, but where are the ftp and www
> areas these days and how does one get stuff onto them?
>
> --
> Peter Eisentraut peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter
>
>

>
>
> just about to be moved to the new server, now that the new 18gi drive has
> been installed ... plan on getting that done this afternoon ...

Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
enough for people modifying the SGML files. This way they can commit
changes and check in fifteen minutes to see the changes in HTML.

They are now at:

http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml

I will add a link to the bottom of the developer's page.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Can someone help me get the 1/2 hours SGML build link on to the
developer's page. I can't find where that is located. I modified
index.html in the developers corner on www.ca.postgresql.org but it is
not showing:

http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php

>
> just about to be moved to the new server, now that the new 18gi drive has
> been installed ... plan on getting that done this afternoon ...
>
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>
> > I've built the docs on cvs.postgresql.org, but where are the ftp and www
> > areas these days and how does one get stuff onto them?
> >
> > --
> > Peter Eisentraut peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter
> >
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org
>

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

done already, ftp should be accessible as it was before ...

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> >
> >
> > just about to be moved to the new server, now that the new 18gi drive has
> > been installed ... plan on getting that done this afternoon ...
>
> Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
> enough for people modifying the SGML files. This way they can commit
> changes and check in fifteen minutes to see the changes in HTML.
>
> They are now at:
>
> http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml
>
> I will add a link to the bottom of the developer's page.
>
> --
> Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
> pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
> + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
> + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
>

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

>
> Can someone help me get the 1/2 hours SGML build link on to the
> developer's page. I can't find where that is located. I modified
> index.html in the developers corner on www.ca.postgresql.org but it is
> not showing:
>
> http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php

What do you want added?

>
> >
> > just about to be moved to the new server, now that the new 18gi drive has
> > been installed ... plan on getting that done this afternoon ...
> >
> > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> >
> > > I've built the docs on cvs.postgresql.org, but where are the ftp and www
> > > areas these days and how does one get stuff onto them?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Peter Eisentraut peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org
> >
>
>

--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

> On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> >
> > Can someone help me get the 1/2 hours SGML build link on to the
> > developer's page. I can't find where that is located. I modified
> > index.html in the developers corner on www.ca.postgresql.org but it is
> > not showing:
> >
> > http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php
>
> What do you want added?

I wanted this added at the bottom:

<li><a href="http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml">SGML docs
updated every half-hour</a>

I updated the www cvs copy and put it on the web site but it seems that
page is now generated via PHP if I am seeing the URL correctly:

http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Can someone help me get the 1/2 hours SGML build link on to the
> > > developer's page. I can't find where that is located. I modified
> > > index.html in the developers corner on www.ca.postgresql.org but it is
> > > not showing:
> > >
> > > http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php
> >
> > What do you want added?
>
> I wanted this added at the bottom:
>
> <li><a href="http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml">SGML docs
> updated every half-hour</a>

It's there.

Vince.
--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> >
> >
> > just about to be moved to the new server, now that the new 18gi drive has
> > been installed ... plan on getting that done this afternoon ...
>
> Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
>
Would it not be better to provide a means for developers to cause the rebuild on demand? A 15-minute wait doesn't seem convenient to me.

>

> On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Can someone help me get the 1/2 hours SGML build link on to the
> > > > developer's page. I can't find where that is located. I modified
> > > > index.html in the developers corner on www.ca.postgresql.org but it is
> > > > not showing:
> > > >
> > > > http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php
> > >
> > > What do you want added?
> >
> > I wanted this added at the bottom:
> >
> > <li><a href="http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml">SGML docs
> > updated every half-hour</a>
>
> It's there.

I also need:

<li><a
href="http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml/build.log">SGML
build log</a>

Again, I got it into the cvs www but it doesn't appear on
www.ca.postgresql.org. Is there something I am doing wrong?

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

> On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
>
> > >
> > >
> > > just about to be moved to the new server, now that the new 18gi drive has
> > > been installed ... plan on getting that done this afternoon ...
> >
> > Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> > minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
> >
> Would it not be better to provide a means for developers to cause the rebuild on demand? A 15-minute wait doesn't seem convenient to me.

Yep, but it takes 15 minutes to build anyway, so I figured I would check
very 15 minutes and adding another 15, that makes 1/2 hour. We don't
have a mechanism to build only a few html files. You have to do the
whole thing.

Suggestions?

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >
> > > > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Can someone help me get the 1/2 hours SGML build link on to the
> > > > > developer's page. I can't find where that is located. I modified
> > > > > index.html in the developers corner on www.ca.postgresql.org but it is
> > > > > not showing:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php
> > > >
> > > > What do you want added?
> > >
> > > I wanted this added at the bottom:
> > >
> > > <li><a href="http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml">SGML docs
> > > updated every half-hour</a>
> >
> > It's there.
>
> I also need:
>
> <li><a
> href="http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml/build.log">SGML
> build log</a>

Added.

> Again, I got it into the cvs www but it doesn't appear on
> www.ca.postgresql.org. Is there something I am doing wrong?

That's because developers corner is gone. users lounge and the
main site are next to go.

--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

> > I also need:
> >
> > <li><a
> > href="http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml/build.log">SGML
> > build log</a>
>
> Added.
>
> > Again, I got it into the cvs www but it doesn't appear on
> > www.ca.postgresql.org. Is there something I am doing wrong?
>
> That's because developers corner is gone. users lounge and the
> main site are next to go.

OK, exactly how are changes made? Can only you make them?

Also, any idea why the link isn't working? It doesn't work here either.
I thought you could put in a text file in any directory and it would
work but now I am unsure.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > > I also need:
> > >
> > > <li><a
> > > href="http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml/build.log">SGML
> > > build log</a>
> >
> > Added.
> >
> > > Again, I got it into the cvs www but it doesn't appear on
> > > www.ca.postgresql.org. Is there something I am doing wrong?
> >
> > That's because developers corner is gone. users lounge and the
> > main site are next to go.
>
> OK, exactly how are changes made? Can only you make them?

For now yes. There's too much going on to be letting more than me and
Marc in there.

> Also, any idea why the link isn't working? It doesn't work here either.
> I thought you could put in a text file in any directory and it would
> work but now I am unsure.

What link?

Vince.
--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

> > > That's because developers corner is gone. users lounge and the
> > > main site are next to go.
> >
> > OK, exactly how are changes made? Can only you make them?
>
> For now yes. There's too much going on to be letting more than me and
> Marc in there.

No problem.

> > Also, any idea why the link isn't working? It doesn't work here either.
> > I thought you could put in a text file in any directory and it would
> > work but now I am unsure.
>
> What link?

The new SGML log build output. I fixed it by renaming it to build.html
and putting <HTML> and <PRE> tags. Would you rename the link from
build.log to build.html. Thanks.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > > > That's because developers corner is gone. users lounge and the
> > > > main site are next to go.
> > >
> > > OK, exactly how are changes made? Can only you make them?
> >
> > For now yes. There's too much going on to be letting more than me and
> > Marc in there.
>
> No problem.
>
> > > Also, any idea why the link isn't working? It doesn't work here either.
> > > I thought you could put in a text file in any directory and it would
> > > work but now I am unsure.
> >
> > What link?
>
> The new SGML log build output. I fixed it by renaming it to build.html
> and putting <HTML> and <PRE> tags. Would you rename the link from
> build.log to build.html. Thanks.

All set.

--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

Bruce Momjian writes:

> Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
> enough for people modifying the SGML files.

This is news to me... Do you mean you commit stuff and then wait 15
minutes to see how it looks?

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter

On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Bruce Momjian writes:
>
> > Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> > minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
> > enough for people modifying the SGML files.
>
> This is news to me... Do you mean you commit stuff and then wait 15
> minutes to see how it looks?

You mean you commit stuff before testing it locally?

Vince.
--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

> Bruce Momjian writes:
>
> > Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> > minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
> > enough for people modifying the SGML files.
>
> This is news to me... Do you mean you commit stuff and then wait 15
> minutes to see how it looks?

I have a cron job that does cvs update every 15 minutes and recreates
the HTML if needed.

I know you can manually run it on individual SGML files but I don't see
a way to automate that. Do you?

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

> On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>
> > Bruce Momjian writes:
> >
> > > Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> > > minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
> > > enough for people modifying the SGML files.
> >
> > This is news to me... Do you mean you commit stuff and then wait 15
> > minutes to see how it looks?
>
> You mean you commit stuff before testing it locally?

Not everyone has sgml tools on their local machine, do they?

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> >
> > > Bruce Momjian writes:
> > >
> > > > Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> > > > minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
> > > > enough for people modifying the SGML files.
> > >
> > > This is news to me... Do you mean you commit stuff and then wait 15
> > > minutes to see how it looks?
> >
> > You mean you commit stuff before testing it locally?
>
> Not everyone has sgml tools on their local machine, do they?

I understood it to be a requirement for doc development.

--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

> On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > > On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
> > >
> > > > Bruce Momjian writes:
> > > >
> > > > > Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> > > > > minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
> > > > > enough for people modifying the SGML files.
> > > >
> > > > This is news to me... Do you mean you commit stuff and then wait 15
> > > > minutes to see how it looks?
> > >
> > > You mean you commit stuff before testing it locally?
> >
> > Not everyone has sgml tools on their local machine, do they?
>
> I understood it to be a requirement for doc development.

We have lots of people who submit SGML changes with their code patches
and they certainly don't have it installed. I only installed it in the
past six months.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Something is broken with anon cvs:

cvs server: Updating pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple
cvs server: failed to create lock directory for /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple' (/projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple/#cvs.lock): Permission denied
cvs server: failed to obtain dir lock in repository /projects/cvsroot/pgsql/contrib/pgstattuple'
cvs [server aborted]: read lock failed - giving up

Oleg
On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

>
> done already, ftp should be accessible as it was before ...
>
> On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > >
> > >
> > > just about to be moved to the new server, now that the new 18gi drive has
> > > been installed ... plan on getting that done this afternoon ...
> >
> > Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> > minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
> > enough for people modifying the SGML files. This way they can commit
> > changes and check in fifteen minutes to see the changes in HTML.
> >
> > They are now at:
> >
> > http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml
> >
> > I will add a link to the bottom of the developer's page.
> >
> > --
> > Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
> > pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
> > + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
> > + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org
>

Regards,
Oleg
_____________________________________________________________
Oleg Bartunov, sci.researcher, hostmaster of AstroNet,
Sternberg Astronomical Institute, Moscow University (Russia)
Internet: oleg(at)sai(dot)msu(dot)su, http://www.sai.msu.su/~megera/
phone: +007(095)939-16-83, +007(095)939-23-83

...
> Not everyone has sgml tools on their local machine, do they?
...

But everyone committing changes to docs does, or should have, sgml tools
on *their* machines. Right??

- Thomas

> <li><a href="http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml">SGML docs
> updated every half-hour</a>

Ya know, if I'm required to wait 12 hours for *any* source code build to
be available to my CVSup'd repository, why should we slap in a bunch of
short circuits for the docs? And if this is a valuable thing to do, why
short circuit the docs building procedure I've already got on the main
machines by pointing the web site off to some other machine?

fwiw, one docs building procedure, either ~thomas's, or ~petere's new
one, or ~bruce's should be sufficient imho.

Since we all seem to be heading off in different directions, we should
talk about why that is necessary and try to get headed somewhere
productively imho.

- Thomas

> ...
> > Not everyone has sgml tools on their local machine, do they?
> ...
>
> But everyone committing changes to docs does, or should have, sgml tools
> on *their* machines. Right??

For a long time I didn't. I would make the edits and check them the
next day. I tried to make sure I had stuff balanced and most of the
changes were minor.

SGML is not tough to download but it is tough to get all the pieces
working together.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

> > <li><a href="http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml">SGML docs
> > updated every half-hour</a>
>
> Ya know, if I'm required to wait 12 hours for *any* source code build to
> be available to my CVSup'd repository, why should we slap in a bunch of
> short circuits for the docs? And if this is a valuable thing to do, why
> short circuit the docs building procedure I've already got on the main
> machines by pointing the web site off to some other machine?
>
> fwiw, one docs building procedure, either ~thomas's, or ~petere's new
> one, or ~bruce's should be sufficient imho.
>
> Since we all seem to be heading off in different directions, we should
> talk about why that is necessary and try to get headed somewhere
> productively imho.

I did it because the doc build was down and it was supposedly holding up
beta. I do think we need more frequent doc builds than 24 hours though.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Thomas Lockhart <lockhart(at)fourpalms(dot)org> writes:
>> Not everyone has sgml tools on their local machine, do they?

> But everyone committing changes to docs does, or should have, sgml tools
> on *their* machines. Right??

I think it's a bad idea to create such a policy; anything we do that
raises the bar for docs contributions will just mean that we have less
and worse documentation. Hasn't our past policy always been "submit
whatever you want, even plain text, and we'll fix the markup later"?

If you want to see the effects of such a policy, you need look no
further than Jan, who still has not committed one line of documentation
about the pgstats views because he doesn't want to be bothered with
SGML.

If Bruce wants to expend a lot of cycles on his machine to provide fast
turnaround of docs changes, that's fine with me.

regards, tom lane

> Thomas Lockhart <lockhart(at)fourpalms(dot)org> writes:
> >> Not everyone has sgml tools on their local machine, do they?
>
> > But everyone committing changes to docs does, or should have, sgml tools
> > on *their* machines. Right??
>
> I think it's a bad idea to create such a policy; anything we do that
> raises the bar for docs contributions will just mean that we have less
> and worse documentation. Hasn't our past policy always been "submit
> whatever you want, even plain text, and we'll fix the markup later"?
>
> If you want to see the effects of such a policy, you need look no
> further than Jan, who still has not committed one line of documentation
> about the pgstats views because he doesn't want to be bothered with
> SGML.
>
> If Bruce wants to expend a lot of cycles on his machine to provide fast
> turnaround of docs changes, that's fine with me.

I also have the SGML build log with errors in _red_! Nifty feature.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Vince, can I have write permision to /usr/local/www/www/html/docs on the
new web server machine so I can create symbolic links to the files in my
home directory?

> On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>
> > Bruce Momjian writes:
> >
> > > Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> > > minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
> > > enough for people modifying the SGML files.
> >
> > This is news to me... Do you mean you commit stuff and then wait 15
> > minutes to see how it looks?
>
> You mean you commit stuff before testing it locally?
>
> Vince.
> --
> ==========================================================================
> Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
> 56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
> Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
> Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
> ==========================================================================
>
>
>
>

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

> > >> Not everyone has sgml tools on their local machine, do they?
> > > But everyone committing changes to docs does, or should have, sgml tools
> > > on *their* machines. Right??
> > I think it's a bad idea to create such a policy; anything we do that
> > raises the bar for docs contributions will just mean that we have less
> > and worse documentation. Hasn't our past policy always been "submit
> > whatever you want, even plain text, and we'll fix the markup later"?

Certainly! I've never said otherwise, didn't suggest a change in policy,
and have always been committed to *doing* the markup to make the former
"submit anything" happen. If the docs are broken for a while, or if we
have to work on the submitted patches before committing them, then we
should do that.

But docs don't magically happen without someone babysitting them at
least a little; I know that from experience and I know that Peter and
others have done a lot of work to make this happen too.

Right now, folks are seeing that docs are not getting built, and are
heading off in several directions. I *thought* I've been paying
attention (but have been very busy so could have missed it) and I *know*
that lots of work is being done on the web site, things are being
rearranged etc etc but for those of us who are peripherally involved
with pieces of the web site it would be *really* helpful to know what is
planned, where things are going to go, when it might happen, etc etc.

I would like to resolve the 12 hour lag for CVSup and anoncvs service,
and frankly until that is resolved we should accept that we have a 12
hour turnaround on most changes. Coincidentally, that is the rate at
which the docs are (or would be, if I could figure out where they should
go) currently built.

Let's stop trying to each build a new wheel; we have plenty enough
already. There are fundamental breakages in the current servers, and
until those are resolve I'm not happy that we are changing web site info
etc to suggest workarounds as permanent solutions.

all imho of course ;)

- Thomas

> Vince, can I have write permision to /usr/local/www/www/html/docs on the
> new web server machine so I can create symbolic links to the files in my
> home directory?

??!!

Bruce, what is actually happening here? If we are changing procedures
for building docs, please try to have a discussion about it first. What
are you trying to accomplish that is anything but what has already been
implemented?

If we are taking the role of "central doc build process" away from me,
istm that Peter E would be an appropriate choice for the replacement.

The fundamental problem is not that there is no docs building procedure.
It is that the docs destination area disappeared several weeks ago and
is nowhere to be seen.

- Thomas

> > Vince, can I have write permision to /usr/local/www/www/html/docs on the
> > new web server machine so I can create symbolic links to the files in my
> > home directory?
>
> ??!!
>
> Bruce, what is actually happening here? If we are changing procedures
> for building docs, please try to have a discussion about it first. What
> are you trying to accomplish that is anything but what has already been
> implemented?
>
> If we are taking the role of "central doc build process" away from me,
> istm that Peter E would be an appropriate choice for the replacement.
>
> The fundamental problem is not that there is no docs building procedure.
> It is that the docs destination area disappeared several weeks ago and
> is nowhere to be seen.

No, this is for the HTML version of my book and some of the articles I
have written. Doesn't relate to SGML at all.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > just about to be moved to the new server, now that the new 18gi drive has
> > > > been installed ... plan on getting that done this afternoon ...
> > >
> > > Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> > > minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
> > >
> > Would it not be better to provide a means for developers to cause the rebuild on demand? A 15-minute wait doesn't seem convenient to me.
>
> Yep, but it takes 15 minutes to build anyway, so I figured I would check
> very 15 minutes and adding another 15, that makes 1/2 hour. We don't
> have a mechanism to build only a few html files. You have to do the
> whole thing.
>
> Suggestions?

I don't know enough about how it works (or doesn't), but the delay looks worse.

Add the delay for "missing the bus" and you're out to a 45-minute delay.

The need for on-demand is even greater, even something done crudely:

If a build's in process, flag the need.

When the build completes, check if it has to be done again.

I assume that updates aren't so frequent that you'd be constantly rebuilding, or so infrequently a missed rebuild would cause serious problems.

Perhaps a way to check if a rebuild's in process so that if it's slower than usual a developer can see it's not forgotten (or who else is doing one).

On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote:

> > Vince, can I have write permision to /usr/local/www/www/html/docs on the
> > new web server machine so I can create symbolic links to the files in my
> > home directory?
>
> ??!!
>
> Bruce, what is actually happening here? If we are changing procedures
> for building docs, please try to have a discussion about it first. What
> are you trying to accomplish that is anything but what has already been
> implemented?
>
> If we are taking the role of "central doc build process" away from me,
> istm that Peter E would be an appropriate choice for the replacement.
>
> The fundamental problem is not that there is no docs building procedure.
> It is that the docs destination area disappeared several weeks ago and
> is nowhere to be seen.

Until the dust settles the only two people with write access to either
the developer or regular website will be Marc and myself. I have enough
to do trying to get mirroring straight, keep up with changes to the sites,
etc. that I really don't need anyone messing around. So Bruce, your
request is going to be denied.

Tom, what's missing or out of place? If I can I'll make sure it's there.
This morning I noticed a number of things that I thought were there really
weren't.

Vince.
--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

...
> Tom, what's missing or out of place? If I can I'll make sure it's there.
> This morning I noticed a number of things that I thought were there really
> weren't.

What I was looking for was the place where development docs (built from
daily snapshots) would go. They used to be underneath devel-corner in a
doc(s ??) directory.

I guess I would also expect to find, somewhere, the as-released docs for
current (and previous?) versions.

I was looking the other day and didn't see any of the signs I would have
expected like html files from the docs build process.

Since I don't feel like I understand what the new layout actually is, it
would be nice to hear where I would *expect* to find these things.
"devel-corner is history", "users-lounge is history" lead me to believe
that structure is changing, but I don't know to what.

There are only a few places that I care about (the online docs area is
one of those). I'm happy to wait until new locations are available, but
a quick explanation of where that might be would give me a warm fuzzy
that I'm not falling behind and that I can predict whether the new
layout requires changes to my doc building scripts (as an example).

- Thomas

> Until the dust settles the only two people with write access to either
> the developer or regular website will be Marc and myself. I have enough
> to do trying to get mirroring straight, keep up with changes to the sites,
> etc. that I really don't need anyone messing around. So Bruce, your
> request is going to be denied.

All my links are broken until it is fixed. Here are the links I need,
except it is /home/momjian now:

lrwxrwxrwx 1 momjian pgsql 54 May 22 2000 aw_pgsql_book -> /home/projects
/pgsql/developers/momjian/aw_pgsql_book/
lrwxrwxrwx 1 momjian pgsql 48 May 22 2000 booktips -> /home/projects/pgsq
l/developers/momjian/booktips
lrwxrwxr-x 1 momjian pgsql 54 Jun 18 14:38 hw_performance -> /home/project
s/pgsql/developers/momjian/hw_performance
lrwxrwxr-x 1 momjian pgsql 56 Jun 18 14:55 internalpics.pdf -> /home/proje
cts/pgsql/developers/momjian/internalpics.pdf
lrwxrwxr-x 1 momjian pgsql 52 Jun 18 14:38 writing_apps -> /home/projects/
pgsql/developers/momjian/writing_apps

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote:

> ...
> > Tom, what's missing or out of place? If I can I'll make sure it's there.
> > This morning I noticed a number of things that I thought were there really
> > weren't.
>
> What I was looking for was the place where development docs (built from
> daily snapshots) would go. They used to be underneath devel-corner in a
> doc(s ??) directory.

devel-corner is now developer.postgresql.org These were the nitely
builds, right? For a place to point, look to /docs in the developers
tree.

> I guess I would also expect to find, somewhere, the as-released docs for
> current (and previous?) versions.

How wonderful, those are missing too. They're still in regular cvs,
right? I'll get them tomorrow.

> I was looking the other day and didn't see any of the signs I would have
> expected like html files from the docs build process.
>
> Since I don't feel like I understand what the new layout actually is, it
> would be nice to hear where I would *expect* to find these things.
> "devel-corner is history", "users-lounge is history" lead me to believe
> that structure is changing, but I don't know to what.

yep. developers.postgresql.org will give you an idea as to how.

> There are only a few places that I care about (the online docs area is
> one of those). I'm happy to wait until new locations are available, but
> a quick explanation of where that might be would give me a warm fuzzy
> that I'm not falling behind and that I can predict whether the new
> layout requires changes to my doc building scripts (as an example).

/docs is created. whatever scripts are needed we can put them in place.

Vince.
--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > > <li><a href="http://candle.pha.pa.us/main/writings/pgsql/sgml">SGML docs
> > > updated every half-hour</a>
> >
> > Ya know, if I'm required to wait 12 hours for *any* source code build to
> > be available to my CVSup'd repository, why should we slap in a bunch of
> > short circuits for the docs? And if this is a valuable thing to do, why
> > short circuit the docs building procedure I've already got on the main
> > machines by pointing the web site off to some other machine?
> >
> > fwiw, one docs building procedure, either ~thomas's, or ~petere's new
> > one, or ~bruce's should be sufficient imho.
> >
> > Since we all seem to be heading off in different directions, we should
> > talk about why that is necessary and try to get headed somewhere
> > productively imho.
>
> I did it because the doc build was down and it was supposedly holding up
> beta. I do think we need more frequent doc builds than 24 hours though.

Since when doe sa doc build, or docs of any kind, hold up beta? docs are
'fluid' up until a week before release,as they have always been ...

last I heard from petere, there were tools that need to be installed, and
were installed, ont eh server for the builds ... Peter, did I miss
something in that, or was it just waiting for ftp.postgresql.org to be on
the new server?

...
> Since when doe sa doc build, or docs of any kind, hold up beta? docs are
> 'fluid' up until a week before release,as they have always been ...

Sure. I think that the consensus was that a docs snapshot *should* be
available at the beginning of beta, and there are other issues which
seem to be showstoppers. All of which will be resolved soon I'm sure.

afaik we would like to be in beta RSN, but I have a few more catalog
changes to make so if everything else were in place we would still want
to wait a day or two.

Lots that would be uncovered in beta is being addressed now, and I sense
an increase in the number of things being fixed and improved (a common
sign that people are stepping up their efforts to support the release)
so there is no need for a quick fix on any one thing.

> last I heard from petere, there were tools that need to be installed, and
> were installed, ont eh server for the builds ... Peter, did I miss
> something in that, or was it just waiting for ftp.postgresql.org to be on
> the new server?

Not sure about that. I started to refresh the doc build procedure but
stopped when I couldn't figure out where the docs would go afterwards. I
*think* I now know where that would be, but we are not to the point
where I can actually write files there. And if developer.postgresql.org
doesn't share disks with my home directory and the cvs repository, I'm
looking at having to do a few more tweaks to move these things around
from whatever the best "build machine" would be.

btw, in the machine info I've had before today,
"developer.postgresql.org" didn't show up. So I'll still claim to be
confused over what machines, aliases, and virtual machines are coming
online, how they relate to each other, what disks they will see, etc
etc. To quote an old advertisement down here, "inquiring minds want to
know...". ;)

- Thomas

- Thomas

> > > Since we all seem to be heading off in different directions, we should
> > > talk about why that is necessary and try to get headed somewhere
> > > productively imho.
> >
> > I did it because the doc build was down and it was supposedly holding up
> > beta. I do think we need more frequent doc builds than 24 hours though.
>
> Since when doe sa doc build, or docs of any kind, hold up beta? docs are
> 'fluid' up until a week before release,as they have always been ...
>
> last I heard from petere, there were tools that need to be installed, and
> were installed, ont eh server for the builds ... Peter, did I miss
> something in that, or was it just waiting for ftp.postgresql.org to be on
> the new server?

Tom said we shouldn't go beta without the docs building.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Bruce Momjian <pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us> writes:
>> Since when doe sa doc build, or docs of any kind, hold up beta? docs are
>> 'fluid' up until a week before release,as they have always been ...

> Tom said we shouldn't go beta without the docs building.

I'm not sure whether you're referring to me or Lockhart, but if the
former: I don't say that we must have a working automatic build
process (though it's surely a high priority). What I do say is that
we must have a reasonably up-to-date version of the development docs
posted at the canonical place for same. Else, beta testers will not
know what to test, and so the whole notion of a beta test period is
rendered meaningless.

If the docs situation were the only thing holding up beta, I'd say
do a manual build and install and get on with it. But it seems we
have some other problems too, so Marc and Vince have some breathing
room to finish fixing the server configuration issues...

regards, tom lane

On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > Until the dust settles the only two people with write access to either
> > the developer or regular website will be Marc and myself. I have enough
> > to do trying to get mirroring straight, keep up with changes to the sites,
> > etc. that I really don't need anyone messing around. So Bruce, your
> > request is going to be denied.
>
> All my links are broken until it is fixed. Here are the links I need,
> except it is /home/momjian now:
>
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 momjian pgsql 54 May 22 2000 aw_pgsql_book -> /home/projects
> /pgsql/developers/momjian/aw_pgsql_book/
> lrwxrwxrwx 1 momjian pgsql 48 May 22 2000 booktips -> /home/projects/pgsq
> l/developers/momjian/booktips
> lrwxrwxr-x 1 momjian pgsql 54 Jun 18 14:38 hw_performance -> /home/project
> s/pgsql/developers/momjian/hw_performance
> lrwxrwxr-x 1 momjian pgsql 56 Jun 18 14:55 internalpics.pdf -> /home/proje
> cts/pgsql/developers/momjian/internalpics.pdf
> lrwxrwxr-x 1 momjian pgsql 52 Jun 18 14:38 writing_apps -> /home/projects/
> pgsql/developers/momjian/writing_apps

Move these into a subdir under momjian and I'll point to that. Is the
internalpics.pdf different than the one on the developers site?

Vince.
--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote:

> I would like to resolve the 12 hour lag for CVSup and anoncvs service,
> and frankly until that is resolved we should accept that we have a 12
> hour turnaround on most changes. Coincidentally, that is the rate at
> which the docs are (or would be, if I could figure out where they
> should go) currently built.

It should never have been 12hrs ... I had it set for 4 ... but, I have
drop'd it down to hourly effective this morning ...

> Let's stop trying to each build a new wheel; we have plenty enough
> already. There are fundamental breakages in the current servers, and
> until those are resolve I'm not happy that we are changing web site
> info etc to suggest workarounds as permanent solutions.

Agreed ...

On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Vince Vielhaber wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote:
>
> > ...
> > > Tom, what's missing or out of place? If I can I'll make sure it's there.
> > > This morning I noticed a number of things that I thought were there really
> > > weren't.
> >
> > What I was looking for was the place where development docs (built from
> > daily snapshots) would go. They used to be underneath devel-corner in a
> > doc(s ??) directory.
>
> devel-corner is now developer.postgresql.org These were the nitely
> builds, right? For a place to point, look to /docs in the developers
> tree.

developers tree => /usr/local/www/developers

"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy(at)hub(dot)org> writes:
> On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote:
>> I would like to resolve the 12 hour lag for CVSup and anoncvs service,

> It should never have been 12hrs ... I had it set for 4 ... but, I have
> drop'd it down to hourly effective this morning ...

That sounds like a good setting for anoncvs service. But I think Thomas
(and any other committers who use cvsup) still need a cvsup server
running on the master cvs machine. Even a 1-hour lag is too much when
you are trying to commit changes.

regards, tom lane

will set that one up next ...

On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Tom Lane wrote:

> "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy(at)hub(dot)org> writes:
> > On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote:
> >> I would like to resolve the 12 hour lag for CVSup and anoncvs service,
>
> > It should never have been 12hrs ... I had it set for 4 ... but, I have
> > drop'd it down to hourly effective this morning ...
>
> That sounds like a good setting for anoncvs service. But I think Thomas
> (and any other committers who use cvsup) still need a cvsup server
> running on the master cvs machine. Even a 1-hour lag is too much when
> you are trying to commit changes.
>
> regards, tom lane
>

> On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > > Until the dust settles the only two people with write access to either
> > > the developer or regular website will be Marc and myself. I have enough
> > > to do trying to get mirroring straight, keep up with changes to the sites,
> > > etc. that I really don't need anyone messing around. So Bruce, your
> > > request is going to be denied.
> >
> > All my links are broken until it is fixed. Here are the links I need,
> > except it is /home/momjian now:
> >
> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 momjian pgsql 54 May 22 2000 aw_pgsql_book -> /home/projects
> > /pgsql/developers/momjian/aw_pgsql_book/
> > lrwxrwxrwx 1 momjian pgsql 48 May 22 2000 booktips -> /home/projects/pgsq
> > l/developers/momjian/booktips
> > lrwxrwxr-x 1 momjian pgsql 54 Jun 18 14:38 hw_performance -> /home/project
> > s/pgsql/developers/momjian/hw_performance
> > lrwxrwxr-x 1 momjian pgsql 56 Jun 18 14:55 internalpics.pdf -> /home/proje
> > cts/pgsql/developers/momjian/internalpics.pdf
> > lrwxrwxr-x 1 momjian pgsql 52 Jun 18 14:38 writing_apps -> /home/projects/
> > pgsql/developers/momjian/writing_apps
>
> Move these into a subdir under momjian and I'll point to that. Is the
> internalpics.pdf different than the one on the developers site?

OK, new directory is /home/momjian/docs and links need to be created in
/usr/local/www/www/html/docs.

internalpics.pdf is the same as the one you have on the developers site
but it should be a link to the copy in my home directory so I can update
it regularly. I know it is kind of strange to have a symlink for the
same file from the main web site and the developers site to my home
directory but the old URL for that is still used in other places so I
need both.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >
> > > > Until the dust settles the only two people with write access to either
> > > > the developer or regular website will be Marc and myself. I have enough
> > > > to do trying to get mirroring straight, keep up with changes to the sites,
> > > > etc. that I really don't need anyone messing around. So Bruce, your
> > > > request is going to be denied.
> > >
> > > All my links are broken until it is fixed. Here are the links I need,
> > > except it is /home/momjian now:
> > >
> > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 momjian pgsql 54 May 22 2000 aw_pgsql_book -> /home/projects
> > > /pgsql/developers/momjian/aw_pgsql_book/
> > > lrwxrwxrwx 1 momjian pgsql 48 May 22 2000 booktips -> /home/projects/pgsq
> > > l/developers/momjian/booktips
> > > lrwxrwxr-x 1 momjian pgsql 54 Jun 18 14:38 hw_performance -> /home/project
> > > s/pgsql/developers/momjian/hw_performance
> > > lrwxrwxr-x 1 momjian pgsql 56 Jun 18 14:55 internalpics.pdf -> /home/proje
> > > cts/pgsql/developers/momjian/internalpics.pdf
> > > lrwxrwxr-x 1 momjian pgsql 52 Jun 18 14:38 writing_apps -> /home/projects/
> > > pgsql/developers/momjian/writing_apps
> >
> > Move these into a subdir under momjian and I'll point to that. Is the
> > internalpics.pdf different than the one on the developers site?
>
> OK, new directory is /home/momjian/docs and links need to be created in
> /usr/local/www/www/html/docs.
>
> internalpics.pdf is the same as the one you have on the developers site
> but it should be a link to the copy in my home directory so I can update
> it regularly. I know it is kind of strange to have a symlink for the
> same file from the main web site and the developers site to my home
> directory but the old URL for that is still used in other places so I
> need both.

All done. Let me know if anything's missing.

--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

> > OK, new directory is /home/momjian/docs and links need to be created in
> > /usr/local/www/www/html/docs.
> >
> > internalpics.pdf is the same as the one you have on the developers site
> > but it should be a link to the copy in my home directory so I can update
> > it regularly. I know it is kind of strange to have a symlink for the
> > same file from the main web site and the developers site to my home
> > directory but the old URL for that is still used in other places so I
> > need both.
>
> All done. Let me know if anything's missing.

Beautiful.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

> On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
>
> > > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > just about to be moved to the new server, now that the new 18gi drive has
> > > > > been installed ... plan on getting that done this afternoon ...
> > > >
> > > > Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> > > > minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
> > > >
> > > Would it not be better to provide a means for developers to cause the rebuild on demand? A 15-minute wait doesn't seem convenient to me.
> >
> > Yep, but it takes 15 minutes to build anyway, so I figured I would check
> > very 15 minutes and adding another 15, that makes 1/2 hour. We don't
> > have a mechanism to build only a few html files. You have to do the
> > whole thing.
> >
> > Suggestions?
>
> I don't know enough about how it works (or doesn't), but the
> delay looks worse.
>
> Add the delay for "missing the bus" and you're out to a 45-minute
> delay.

True.

> The need for on-demand is even greater, even something done
> crudely:
>
> If a build's in process, flag the need.

Added. I realized that I could have two running at the same time, which
would be a disaster.

> When the build completes, check if it has to be done again.

Great idea! Added.

> I assume that updates aren't so frequent that you'd be constantly
> rebuilding, or so infrequently a missed rebuild would cause
> serious problems.

Yep.

> Perhaps a way to check if a rebuild's in process so that if it's
> slower than usual a developer can see it's not forgotten (or
> who else is doing one).

Script attached. I could poll cvs more frequently but it seems rude to
hit the cvs server more frequently than every 15 minutes. If people
want it polled more frequently, and Marc doesn't mind, I can change the
polling interval here.

Also, I added something that will show the files modified in the current
build.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Thomas Lockhart wrote:

> Not sure about that. I started to refresh the doc build procedure but
> stopped when I couldn't figure out where the docs would go afterwards.
> I *think* I now know where that would be, but we are not to the point
> where I can actually write files there. And if
> developer.postgresql.org doesn't share disks with my home directory
> and the cvs repository, I'm looking at having to do a few more tweaks
> to move these things around from whatever the best "build machine"
> would be.

Its all on the same hard drive, on the same machine ...

> btw, in the machine info I've had before today,
> "developer.postgresql.org" didn't show up. So I'll still claim to be
> confused over what machines, aliases, and virtual machines are coming
> online, how they relate to each other, what disks they will see, etc
> etc. To quote an old advertisement down here, "inquiring minds want to
> know...". ;)

okay, let's try and do a summary here that is bound to miss something,
but ...

several monthss back, we moved to doing "virtual machine hosting", where
our clients were provided an isolated environment for their domains ... it
meant that we could provide very specialized services as a client required
(jakarta-tomcat for some, openacs for others, etc) without
conflicts/sharing between them ...

a 'domain machine' doesn't have any partitions per se, so if you do a 'df
.' from anywhre on cvs.postgresql.org, it will always be the same 'drive'
...

now,if you look at http://www.postgresql.org, it is just a "portal" now to
the mirrors, and hte mirrors have been tightened up so that any that is
out of date by 48hrs is automatically drop'd ... Vince and gang are
working on making it into even more of a portal site then what it is now,
with links to articles about PgSQL, news about it, etc ... work in
progress ...

The 'physical sites' for PgSQL are moving to:

http://www.<cc>.postgresql.org
ftp://ftp.<cc>.postgresql.org

On the main server, where everything is pulled from,
http://www.ca.postgresql.org points to /usr/local/www/www/html ...

http://www.postgresql.org itself is on a different machine, as it doesn't
contain any "real" information, its all going to be dynamically generated
out of the database ...

http://archives.<cc>.postgresql.org is the mailing list archives which is
mhonarc based, and uses UDMSearch to search through them ... again,
everything in there is automagically generated, but is pulled from the
main server ...

http://fts.postgresql.org is still the OpenFTS search of the archives, so
there are two ways of searching the archives ...

http://gborg.postgresql.org, still being worked on, is in its own 'virtual
machine', since I didn't want to worry about overlaps with CVS ...

then there is techdocs and developer ...

archives was split from the main site, mainly to reduce teh size of teh
mirror, to make it optional instead of required ... www.<cc> is going to
be, as far as I understand it, the 'released stuff', while developer.<cc>
is going to be stuff like the TODO lists and views into the CVS repository
and whatnot ...

Alot of it is still a work in progress, and once we get the portal done,
we should have better 'directions' to give to ppl as to where they want to
go, but the 'central site' has just gotten too un-manageable from an
admin, as well as mirror, point of view ...

Anything that anyone is going to need to modify will always be on the
central server, which, once we get the new mirror stuff in place, will be
just plain 'postgresql.org', but for now is 'cvs.postgresql.org' ... ftp
directories are under ~ftp and web directories are all off of
/usr/local/www ... those will not change ...

does that help any, in the short term?

On Tuesday 02 October 2001 12:36 pm, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> does that help any, in the short term?
Thanks for the roadmap. Now we know a cliff isn't around the next blind
hairpin curve.... :-)
--
Lamar Owen
WGCR Internet Radio
1 Peter 4:11

Ummmm ... I thought we weren't going to do this, but were going to fix the
proper build process?

On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > just about to be moved to the new server, now that the new 18gi drive has
> > > > > > been installed ... plan on getting that done this afternoon ...
> > > > >
> > > > > Don't rush. I am setting up my system to check the SGML docs every 15
> > > > > minutes and rebuild if necessary. Overnight builds are not frequent
> > > > >
> > > > Would it not be better to provide a means for developers to cause the rebuild on demand? A 15-minute wait doesn't seem convenient to me.
> > >
> > > Yep, but it takes 15 minutes to build anyway, so I figured I would check
> > > very 15 minutes and adding another 15, that makes 1/2 hour. We don't
> > > have a mechanism to build only a few html files. You have to do the
> > > whole thing.
> > >
> > > Suggestions?
> >
> > I don't know enough about how it works (or doesn't), but the
> > delay looks worse.
> >
> > Add the delay for "missing the bus" and you're out to a 45-minute
> > delay.
>
> True.
>
> > The need for on-demand is even greater, even something done
> > crudely:
> >
> > If a build's in process, flag the need.
>
> Added. I realized that I could have two running at the same time, which
> would be a disaster.
>
> > When the build completes, check if it has to be done again.
>
> Great idea! Added.
>
> > I assume that updates aren't so frequent that you'd be constantly
> > rebuilding, or so infrequently a missed rebuild would cause
> > serious problems.
>
> Yep.
>
> > Perhaps a way to check if a rebuild's in process so that if it's
> > slower than usual a developer can see it's not forgotten (or
> > who else is doing one).
>
> Script attached. I could poll cvs more frequently but it seems rude to
> hit the cvs server more frequently than every 15 minutes. If people
> want it polled more frequently, and Marc doesn't mind, I can change the
> polling interval here.
>
> Also, I added something that will show the files modified in the current
> build.
>
> --
> Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
> pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
> + If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
> + Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026
>

>
> Ummmm ... I thought we weren't going to do this, but were going to fix the
> proper build process?

Well, until it works I can fiddle with it here. What will the future
build interval be? Are people OK with that?

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Lamar Owen wrote:

> On Tuesday 02 October 2001 12:36 pm, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > does that help any, in the short term?
> Thanks for the roadmap. Now we know a cliff isn't around the next blind
> hairpin curve.... :-)

Shhhhh! :)

Vince.
--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

Vince, can you update:

/usr/local/www/developer/TODO/docs/cvs.html

to use the right CVS locations or give me permission to modify it.

> On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Lamar Owen wrote:
>
> > On Tuesday 02 October 2001 12:36 pm, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > > does that help any, in the short term?
> > Thanks for the roadmap. Now we know a cliff isn't around the next blind
> > hairpin curve.... :-)
>
> Shhhhh! :)
>
> Vince.
> --
> ==========================================================================
> Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
> 56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
> Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
> Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
> ==========================================================================
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>
> http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
>

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

Bruce Momjian writes:

> I know you can manually run it on individual SGML files but I don't see
> a way to automate that. Do you?

I don't because there isn't. For one, if a link points to some other file
you lose.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter

On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> Vince, can you update:
>
> /usr/local/www/developer/TODO/docs/cvs.html
>
> to use the right CVS locations or give me permission to modify it.

Where is the new one hiding?

>
>
> > On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Lamar Owen wrote:
> >
> > > On Tuesday 02 October 2001 12:36 pm, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> > > > does that help any, in the short term?
> > > Thanks for the roadmap. Now we know a cliff isn't around the next blind
> > > hairpin curve.... :-)
> >
> > Shhhhh! :)
> >
> > Vince.
> > --
> > ==========================================================================
> > Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
> > 56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
> > Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
> > Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
> > ==========================================================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
> >
> > http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
> >
>
>

--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

> On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
> > Vince, can you update:
> >
> > /usr/local/www/developer/TODO/docs/cvs.html
> >
> > to use the right CVS locations or give me permission to modify it.
>
> Where is the new one hiding?

Uh, we are not building SGML yet. Here is the HTML file that is current
from my machine.

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 853-3000
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 830 Blythe Avenue
+ Christ can be your backup. | Drexel Hill, Pennsylvania 19026

On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >
> > > Vince, can you update:
> > >
> > > /usr/local/www/developer/TODO/docs/cvs.html
> > >
> > > to use the right CVS locations or give me permission to modify it.
> >
> > Where is the new one hiding?
>
> Uh, we are not building SGML yet. Here is the HTML file that is current
> from my machine.

Got it and it's installed.

Vince.
--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
56K Nationwide Dialup from $16.00/mo at Pop4 Networking
Online Campground Directory http://www.camping-usa.com
Online Giftshop Superstore http://www.cloudninegifts.com
==========================================================================

Marc G. Fournier writes:

> last I heard from petere, there were tools that need to be installed, and
> were installed, ont eh server for the builds ... Peter, did I miss
> something in that, or was it just waiting for ftp.postgresql.org to be on
> the new server?

Docs build fine. There just wasn't a place to put them until a few days
ago, plus I didn't want to put them there because I'm not the one in
charge of this. AFAICT, Thomas Lockhart should be able to use his old
scripted setup with a path change or three as already discussed.

Thomas, you will probably want to get some newer DSSSL stylesheets rather
than the ones installed under /usr/local/...; you can find tarballs for a
recent release or two at or near ~petere/PGDOC/{share|src} (forget where).
Use DOCBOOKSTYLE = <path> in Makefile.custom, or in the environment before
configure, as usual.

--
Peter Eisentraut peter_e(at)gmx(dot)net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter

> will set that one up next ...

Great! Thanks...

- Thomas

> > That sounds like a good setting for anoncvs service. But I think Thomas
> > (and any other committers who use cvsup) still need a cvsup server
> > running on the master cvs machine. Even a 1-hour lag is too much when
> > you are trying to commit changes.

On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:

> > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> >
> >
> > > > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Script attached. I could poll cvs more frequently but it seems rude to
> hit the cvs server more frequently than every 15 minutes. If people
> want it polled more frequently, and Marc doesn't mind, I can change the
> polling interval here.
>
> Also, I added something that will show the files modified in the current
> build.

I'm not vary familiar with the administration of CVS - if it has a means to
run a script when something's updated, maybe you could flag the need to rebuild
automatically.

On Thu, 4 Oct 2001, John Summerfield wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Oct 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>
>
> > > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Script attached. I could poll cvs more frequently but it seems rude to
> > hit the cvs server more frequently than every 15 minutes. If people
> > want it polled more frequently, and Marc doesn't mind, I can change the
> > polling interval here.
> >
> > Also, I added something that will show the files modified in the current
> > build.
>
>
> I'm not vary familiar with the administration of CVS - if it has a means to
> run a script when something's updated, maybe you could flag the need to rebuild
> automatically.

It has that ability, but only on the server itself ... bruce has taken it
upon himself to do this on his own machine, while the base problem is
worked on, which is moving everything over to the new server ...

Its had its hiccups, but considering we really haven't moved anything
anywhere in >5 years now, and considering we are not in beta yet, we've
done a decent job of getting problems fixed as soon as they've been
reported ...