Re: Postgres idea list

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> Do people want an advocacy article written, like "How to choose a
> database?" I could do that.

That would be good, as would an updated "postgres vs mysql" article
to point people towards. Or a "postgres myths debunked" page.

> Basically, I am open to ideas. Would it help to fly me out to meet IT
> leaders? More books/articles? What does it take? What do successful
> companies and open source projects do that works?

Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting
around:

1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses
to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc.

2. Stop using the name "postmaster" as our daemon. Seriously. I've seen
many a person, some new to *nix and some not, take a look at ps -Af and
say "what the heck is that?" Whereas mysql uses "mysqld", cron uses "crond",
ssh uses "sshd", and apache uses "httpd", we (postgres) use "postmaster." The
name seems to imply something to do with email, and should be abandoned in
favor of postgresd or postgresqld or even pgsqld.

3. Combine pg_hba.conf, pg_ident.conf, and postgresql.conf into a single
file, postgres.conf. Clean it up and simplify it. Have a command-line tool
to make changes. Have a way to test out the changes, similar to
"apachectl configtest"

4. Fix the documentation. The interactive documentation on the website
is particularly bad: try a search on "sequence", for example. The result
is 65 matches, and each one a filename.

5. The website needs lots of improvement, on layout, navigation, and
content. mySQL actually has this one right.

6. Moderate the lists better. There is a lot of traffic in general
that should be going to other lists. Keep all the high-volume, nitty-gritty
stuff on hackers, away from everyday users looking for help.

7. Stop underestimating mySQL. This is our competitor for the short-term
at least, especially as both are open-source. Yes, we are better than
mySQL on a technical level, but in all other areas they have us beat:

* integration with other apps
* mindshare
* publicity
* ease of install
* ease of use
* documentation
* website navigation and appearance
* coolness

mySQL has the feel of an fun, open-source project. Postgres feels like
a stuffy, academic project. At least that's the impression I get from
asking people. All mySQL has to do at this point is improve their
product, by adding things such as sub-selects and transactions. A tall
order, but they are well on their way. We need to tackle all the
items listed above. Not as easy, IMO, and we are not on our way.

8. Stop overestimating Oracle. Postgres is not a blip on their radar
yet. We will probably never catch up to them. Focus instead on the
shortcomings compared to our real rival (see above). Oracle should
be emulated but not chased.

9. Have an easily accessible "todo" list that not only itemizes coding
tasks, but documentation tasks, advocacy tasks, etc. so anyone can
get involved and make contributions, no matter how minor.

10. Sign the source code (and other files) cryptographically. We are one of
the last open-source projects that do not do this. What's to stop someone
from breaking in to a mirror and replacing the tarball and md5 file?
What if they did it on the main server? This is very easy to implement.

11. Consider an official name change to simply Postgres. Yes, there are
historical reasons for this, but everyone I know ends up abbreviating it
to postgres eventually anyway, and postgreSQL is a mouthful.

12. Offer something "fun": a naming contest for the elephant (I know,
I know), a bug squashing contest with prizes, a short interactive
"find the best database for you" quiz, etc.

13. Solve the benchmarking problem. Find out what it takes to get us
benchmarking to the same standards as the commercial DBs. Find a neutral
third-party to compare Postgres and mySQL. Publicize our outstanding
results. Start a debate on slashdot about it. :) Put the ball in mySQL's
court for once.

14. Other things: Offer a bz2 download to save people time and $$. Put
a favicon.ico on the site. Put in a site map. Consider using postgres.org.
Publicize every little change as if it were the best thing since sliced
bread. Solicit more lists like this. Release more often, even if more minor:
stick to beta deadlines strictly. Offer success stories.

15. Don't shoot the messenger. Some of this is my opinions, some is based
on talking to "everyday users" and developers about Postgres.

Greg Sabino Mullane greg(at)turnstep(dot)com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200206251441

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On Tue, 2002-06-25 at 21:31, Neil Conway wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 07:03:39PM -0000, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:
> > 3. Combine pg_hba.conf, pg_ident.conf, and postgresql.conf into a single
> > file, postgres.conf.
>
> I don't see why this would be a win.

What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf and
postgresql.conf. Once that was done PG_Admin could write a lovely
interface to manage them without requiring direct access to the files.

Folks,

> Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting
> around:
>
> 1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses
> to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc.
etc ....

I hereby nominate Greg as PostgreSQL.org Marketing Director.

--
-Josh Berkus

"Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg(at)turnstep(dot)com> writes:
> Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting
> around:

Some of these strike me as good ideas, some not, but for the moment I
don't want to get dragged into debating them individually. The thought
that kept coming to me as I read your list is: who exactly is going to
*do* all this stuff? I sure don't want to. Reflecting on it leads me
to realize that our existing project leadership (core committee and
other key people) is mostly technically-focused people. We have been
doing a good job of providing technical leadership, and a pretty
good job of providing project infrastructure, but anything to do with
marketing, promotion, or advocacy has been given the cold shoulder,
I think.

We need a few volunteers with the time and inclination to do that kind
of work.

It also occurs to me that discussing this on -hackers, which is a
technically focused list, is itself somewhat wrongheaded. The best
list we have for it at the moment is -general, but I wonder whether we
shouldn't create a list centered around project promotion and outreach
concerns.

regards, tom lane

On Tue, Jun 25, 2002 at 07:03:39PM -0000, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:
> 3. Combine pg_hba.conf, pg_ident.conf, and postgresql.conf into a single
> file, postgres.conf.

I don't see why this would be a win.

> Have a command-line tool to make changes.

You mean like vi(1) ? :-)

> Have a way to test out the changes, similar to "apachectl configtest"

Not sure about this -- I can see the importance of testing out
configuration changes, but AFAICS "pg_ctl configtest" would be
little more than a glorified syntax check. I think we need to rely on
DBA's to ensure that the configuration changes they make are valid.

> 4. Fix the documentation. The interactive documentation on the website
> is particularly bad: try a search on "sequence", for example. The result
> is 65 matches, and each one a filename.

I've heard this from others as well.

> 5. The website needs lots of improvement, on layout, navigation, and
> content. mySQL actually has this one right.

Agreed.

> Release more often, even if more minor:

Why? I think the PostgreSQL release engineering process is good.

> stick to beta deadlines strictly.

Why? I'd much prefer that we release code when we are (relatively)
sure it is ready for production use, rather than shoving experimental
code out the door to meet an artificial and probably unrealistic
release target.

Cheers,

Neil

--
Neil Conway <neilconway(at)rogers(dot)com>
PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC

Folks,

> What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf and
> postgresql.conf. Once that was done PG_Admin could write a lovely
> interface to manage them without requiring direct access to the files.

I am going to keep arguing against PG_Admin as the primary solution to any of
our administration UI challenges. It's WINDOWS ONLY, darn it!

--
-Josh Berkus

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:

>
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> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> > Do people want an advocacy article written, like "How to choose a
> > database?" I could do that.
>
> That would be good, as would an updated "postgres vs mysql" article
> to point people towards. Or a "postgres myths debunked" page.
>
> > Basically, I am open to ideas. Would it help to fly me out to meet IT
> > leaders? More books/articles? What does it take? What do successful
> > companies and open source projects do that works?
>
> Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting
> around:
>
> 1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses
> to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc.

pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org has been around for >1year now ...

> 4. Fix the documentation. The interactive documentation on the website
> is particularly bad: try a search on "sequence", for example. The result
> is 65 matches, and each one a filename.

are you volunteering your time for this?

> 5. The website needs lots of improvement, on layout, navigation, and
> content. mySQL actually has this one right.

already being worked on by a group of programmers and web designers ...

> 6. Moderate the lists better. There is a lot of traffic in general that
> should be going to other lists. Keep all the high-volume, nitty-gritty
> stuff on hackers, away from everyday users looking for help.

again, are you volunteering your time for this?

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote:

> "Greg Sabino Mullane" <greg(at)turnstep(dot)com> writes:
> > Since you asked, here are some ideas and thoughts I've been batting
> > around:
>
> Some of these strike me as good ideas, some not, but for the moment I
> don't want to get dragged into debating them individually. The thought
> that kept coming to me as I read your list is: who exactly is going to
> *do* all this stuff? I sure don't want to. Reflecting on it leads me
> to realize that our existing project leadership (core committee and
> other key people) is mostly technically-focused people. We have been
> doing a good job of providing technical leadership, and a pretty
> good job of providing project infrastructure, but anything to do with
> marketing, promotion, or advocacy has been given the cold shoulder,
> I think.
>
> We need a few volunteers with the time and inclination to do that kind
> of work.
>
> It also occurs to me that discussing this on -hackers, which is a
> technically focused list, is itself somewhat wrongheaded. The best
> list we have for it at the moment is -general, but I wonder whether we
> shouldn't create a list centered around project promotion and outreach
> concerns.

You mean a list like ... oh, I don't know ...
pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org? :)

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:56:43 -0300 (ADT)
"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy(at)hub(dot)org> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:
> > 1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses
> > to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc.
>
> pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org has been around for >1year now ...

Not on archives.postgresql.org though, nor has it is listed in the
user-oriented mailing lists at

http://www.ca.postgresql.org/users-lounge/index.html

It's also not listed among the developer-oriented lists at

http://developer.postgresql.org/maillist.php

either (not to mention ftp.postgresql.org). While it may technically
exist, it is well hidden.

Cheers,

Neil

--
Neil Conway <neilconway(at)rogers(dot)com>
PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Josh Berkus wrote:

>
> Folks,
>
> > What would be a win is an SQL like interface to editing pg_hba.conf and
> > postgresql.conf. Once that was done PG_Admin could write a lovely
> > interface to manage them without requiring direct access to the files.
>
> I am going to keep arguing against PG_Admin as the primary solution to any of
> our administration UI challenges. It's WINDOWS ONLY, darn it!

Agreed about specifically focusing on PGAdmin, *but*, there are other
interfaces that could really make use of such a feature ... PHPPgAdmin
being one ...

... but, the first argument against this is what happens if/when someone
puts in an entry in a 'pg_hba' table that blocks everyone from having
access? Or similar changes ...

If I recall correctly, the main argument against moving pg_hba (as an
example) is that you would have to move the 'access restrictions' inside
the backend (postgres) itself, instead of the front end (postmaster),
creating a high probably of a DDoS attack being quite effective ...

Well hidden, but so far 86 have found it and subscribed to it *grin*

But, you are right, should be advertised better ... I have some updates to
do to archives over the next day or two, in order to add in -patches also
...

As for your comments about 'filtering -general', there is nothing stopping
anyone from doing what I'm doing with this ... CC'ng -advocacy and
setting a Reply-To (wonder if that holds through majordomo?) over to
-advocacy where this sort of stuff belongs ... :)

Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no
traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ...

On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Neil Conway wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 21:56:43 -0300 (ADT)
> "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy(at)hub(dot)org> wrote:
> > On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Greg Sabino Mullane wrote:
> > > 1. Start an advocacy mailing list, to help coordinate publicity, responses
> > > to mySQL FUD, ways to advertise, etc.
> >
> > pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org has been around for >1year now ...
>
> Not on archives.postgresql.org though, nor has it is listed in the
> user-oriented mailing lists at
>
> http://www.ca.postgresql.org/users-lounge/index.html
>
> It's also not listed among the developer-oriented lists at
>
> http://developer.postgresql.org/maillist.php
>
> either (not to mention ftp.postgresql.org). While it may technically
> exist, it is well hidden.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Neil
>
> --
> Neil Conway <neilconway(at)rogers(dot)com>
> PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC
>

"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy(at)hub(dot)org> writes:
> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote:
>> It also occurs to me that discussing this on -hackers, which is a
>> technically focused list, is itself somewhat wrongheaded. The best
>> list we have for it at the moment is -general, but I wonder whether we
>> shouldn't create a list centered around project promotion and outreach
>> concerns.

> You mean a list like ... oh, I don't know ...
> pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org? :)

You know, I seemed to remember that we had such a list, but I looked at
http://archives.postgresql.org/
and saw no archive for it, so I figured we didn't.

If you're about to go out and create it, may I suggest that the name
-advocacy might not be the best thing? -advocacy lists seem (to me
anyway) to be more often flamebait arenas than useful discussion areas.
Perhaps pgsql-promotion would be a good name that'd avoid the aura of
flamewars. Or maybe that's just my own perception not anyone else's.

regards, tom lane

Hi Tom,

Tom Lane wrote:
>
> "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy(at)hub(dot)org> writes:
<snip>
> > You mean a list like ... oh, I don't know ...
> > pgsql-advocacy(at)postgresql(dot)org? :)
>
> You know, I seemed to remember that we had such a list, but I looked at
> http://archives.postgresql.org/
> and saw no archive for it, so I figured we didn't.
>
> If you're about to go out and create it, may I suggest that the name
> -advocacy might not be the best thing? -advocacy lists seem (to me
> anyway) to be more often flamebait arenas than useful discussion areas.
> Perhaps pgsql-promotion would be a good name that'd avoid the aura of
> flamewars. Or maybe that's just my own perception not anyone else's.

There is already a pgsql-advocacy list (as was pointed out recently),
but it's unused.

Borrow a leaf from the OpenOffice.org project, how about a
pgsql-marketing list?

:-)

Regards and best wishes,

Justin Clift

>
> regards, tom lane
>
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On Tue, 25 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

>
> Well hidden, but so far 86 have found it and subscribed to it *grin*

It's on the subscription form.

[snip]

> Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no
> traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ...

all done.

Vince.
--
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> > Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no
> > traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ...
>
> all done.

Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org?
I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious
link.

Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically?

Thanks,
Rod

On 27 Jun 2002, Rod Taylor wrote:

> > > Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no
> > > traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ...
> >
> > all done.
>
> Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org?
> I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious
> link.
>
> Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically?

I have no idea who does what on archives. I just yell at Marc if
something's broke.

Vince.
--
==========================================================================
Vince Vielhaber -- KA8CSH email: vev(at)michvhf(dot)com http://www.pop4.net
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==========================================================================

Rod Taylor <rbt(at)zort(dot)ca> writes:
> Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org?
> I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious
> link.

> Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically?

I'm for that too. Every time I go to the archives page, I have to look
carefully to find the list I want.

regards, tom lane

-patches added ... I've gotta redo that page, as it was just a
'quick-n-dirty' when I did it ...

On 27 Jun 2002, Rod Taylor wrote:

> > > Vince, we can get -advocacy listed on the web site? There has been no
> > > traffic over there until now, but there are ppl subscribed to it ...
> >
> > all done.
>
> Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org?
> I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious
> link.
>
> Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically?
>
> Thanks,
> Rod
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
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> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
>
>
>

will do it tonight :)

On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote:

> Rod Taylor <rbt(at)zort(dot)ca> writes:
> > Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org?
> > I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious
> > link.
>
> > Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically?
>
> I'm for that too. Every time I go to the archives page, I have to look
> carefully to find the list I want.
>
> regards, tom lane
>

http://archives.postgresql.org/ ... better?

On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

>
> will do it tonight :)
>
> On Wed, 26 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote:
>
> > Rod Taylor <rbt(at)zort(dot)ca> writes:
> > > Any chance of getting a pgsql-patches link on archives.postgresql.org?
> > > I know the archives are created (I use them) but there is no obvious
> > > link.
> >
> > > Secondly, could the links that do exist be ordered alphabetically?
> >
> > I'm for that too. Every time I go to the archives page, I have to look
> > carefully to find the list I want.
> >
> > regards, tom lane
> >
>
>

"Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy(at)hub(dot)org> writes:
> http://archives.postgresql.org/ ... better?

Yup, although I'd suggest making the classification line up with
the one on the main website --- docs and cygwin are listed as
developer lists there.

Also, someone suggested listing the by-month indexes back-to-front
(most recent month first), which seems like a great idea if not
difficult.

regards, tom lane

On Thu, 27 Jun 2002, Tom Lane wrote:

> "Marc G. Fournier" <scrappy(at)hub(dot)org> writes:
> > http://archives.postgresql.org/ ... better?
>
> Yup, although I'd suggest making the classification line up with
> the one on the main website --- docs and cygwin are listed as
> developer lists there.
>
> Also, someone suggested listing the by-month indexes back-to-front
> (most recent month first), which seems like a great idea if not
> difficult.

Better?

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-jdbc

The rest will 'fall in line' once there is something for mhonarc to work
on again ...

> > Also, someone suggested listing the by-month indexes back-to-front
> > (most recent month first), which seems like a great idea if not
> > difficult.
>
> Better?
>
> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-jdbc
>
> The rest will 'fall in line' once there is something for mhonarc to work
> on again ...

I don't think I've been so happy to see a webpage.

Much better.

Curious how there is a 'search the archives' link going to FTS when
there is a form at the top of the page using another mechanism.

On 27 Jun 2002, Rod Taylor wrote:

> > > Also, someone suggested listing the by-month indexes back-to-front
> > > (most recent month first), which seems like a great idea if not
> > > difficult.
> >
> > Better?
> >
> > http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-jdbc
> >
> > The rest will 'fall in line' once there is something for mhonarc to work
> > on again ...
>
> I don't think I've been so happy to see a webpage.
>
> Much better.
>
> Curious how there is a 'search the archives' link going to FTS when
> there is a form at the top of the page using another mechanism.

two different methods of searching ... those pages still need one helluva
lot of cleanups though, as I shoudl re-word that 'Search the archives' as
something more like 'Alternative methods of searching' or something like
that, and point to FTS and Google ...