Poor Yum User Download Experience

As part of the mistaken debug/assert 8.4.4 RPM build, I started looking
at the user experience of downloading these packages, and found the
experience to be very poor.

From our download page, http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux#yum, I
clicked on "PostgreSQL Yum repository".

That points to a moved link that tells you to go to:

https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki

On that page, under "Configure Yum", you are supposed to click on "1.
Yum", which didn't seem obvious to me.

Then, once there, you see:

Letter P

Packages beginning with letter "P".

* pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository Configuration
* pgdg-fedora - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for Fedora - Yum Repository Configuration
* pgdg-redhat - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for RHEL - Yum Repository Configuration

What kind of title is "Letter P"? And all these downloads are marked as
9.0.X.

Then, once you click on one, it seems fine, though has improved since
yesterday after I complained to Josh Drake about a directory listing
that was confusing.

Back on the Yum download page there is a "Direct Download" section,
which points to:

https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Direct_download

which shows:

8.4 - New release. Test before you upgrade.

Which obviously is inaccurate because 8.4 has been out for many months now.

The bottom line is that almost every page shows a laziness and
sloppiness that makes the community look bad. Contrast this with
Devrim's RPM repository, which is easy to understand:

http://yum.pgrpms.org/

Are there any other off-site download experiences as bad as the Yum one
we link to now?

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Back on the Yum download page there is a "Direct Download" section,
> which points to:
>
> https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Direct_download
>
> which shows:
>
> 8.4 - New release. Test before you upgrade.
>
> Which obviously is inaccurate because 8.4 has been out for many months now.

Oh, another problem. When you click on 8.4 above, you see:

[DIR] Parent Directory -
[DIR] fedora/ 13-Apr-2010 14:19 -
[ ] pgdg-centos-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:51 4.1K
[ ] pgdg-fedora-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:35 4.1K
[ ] pgdg-redhat-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:34 4.1K
[DIR] redhat/ 17-Mar-2010 13:36 -
[DIR] repodata/ 19-Apr-2010 16:24 -

which doesn't make much sense to me, and there is no CentOS directory,
but the Centos noarch.rpm appears in the Redhat subdirectory too. I
don't know enough about RPMs to know if the subdirectory contents make
any sense. And maybe all this is fine.

The bottom line is I consider this RPM/Yum site to be an embarassment.
And the number of problems is so great that there is obviously a
systematic disregard for the user experience, which suggests that even
if all the problems I listed are fixed, new problems will regularly
resurface. This suggests we should be looking elsewhere for RPM/Yum
hosting.

Now, of course, if it is just me who thinks that, then I will just
forget about it.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

> [DIR] Parent Directory -
> [DIR] fedora/ 13-Apr-2010 14:19 -
> [ ] pgdg-centos-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:51 4.1K
> [ ] pgdg-fedora-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:35 4.1K
> [ ] pgdg-redhat-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:34 4.1K
> [DIR] redhat/ 17-Mar-2010 13:36 -
> [DIR] repodata/ 19-Apr-2010 16:24 -
>
> which doesn't make much sense to me, and there is no CentOS directory,
> but the Centos noarch.rpm appears in the Redhat subdirectory too. I
> don't know enough about RPMs to know if the subdirectory contents make
> any sense. And maybe all this is fine.

Well, the point of Yum isn't the web interface; people are supposed to
get in via the yum tool. This may all work a lot better from there.

However, what's missing from that link is actual instructions on using
the Yum repo.

In fact, I don't know what that particular interface even is displaying;
it's not the actual contents of Yum, that's for sure. Here's the actual
contents:
http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/8.4/redhat/rhel-5-x86_64/repoview/

--
-- Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://www.pgexperts.com

On Mon, 2010-06-14 at 15:44 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > [DIR] Parent Directory -
> > [DIR] fedora/ 13-Apr-2010 14:19 -
> > [ ] pgdg-centos-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:51 4.1K
> > [ ] pgdg-fedora-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:35 4.1K
> > [ ] pgdg-redhat-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:34 4.1K
> > [DIR] redhat/ 17-Mar-2010 13:36 -
> > [DIR] repodata/ 19-Apr-2010 16:24 -
> >

> Well, the point of Yum isn't the web interface; people are supposed to
> get in via the yum tool. This may all work a lot better from there.
>
> However, what's missing from that link is actual instructions on using
> the Yum repo.
>
> In fact, I don't know what that particular interface even is displaying;
> it's not the actual contents of Yum, that's for sure. Here's the actual
> contents:
> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/8.4/redhat/rhel-5-x86_64/repoview/

That looks like he clicked on the direct download links. However you are
correct the proper interface is Yum, not the web.

You really should never see yum.pgsqlrpms.org. You should see

https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore

or

https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 503.667.4564
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 17:24, Joshua D. Drake <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-06-14 at 15:44 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
>> >     [DIR]   Parent Directory                 -
>> >     [DIR]   fedora/ 13-Apr-2010 14:19       -
>> >     [ ]     pgdg-centos-8.4-2.noarch.rpm    15-Mar-2010 11:51       4.1K
>> >     [ ]     pgdg-fedora-8.4-2.noarch.rpm    15-Mar-2010 11:35       4.1K
>> >     [ ]     pgdg-redhat-8.4-2.noarch.rpm    15-Mar-2010 11:34       4.1K
>> >     [DIR]   redhat/ 17-Mar-2010 13:36       -
>> >     [DIR]   repodata/       19-Apr-2010 16:24       -
>> >
>
>> Well, the point of Yum isn't the web interface; people are supposed to
>> get in via the yum tool.  This may all work a lot better from there.
>>
>> However, what's missing from that link is actual instructions on using
>> the Yum repo.
>>
>> In fact, I don't know what that particular interface even is displaying;
>> it's not the actual contents of Yum, that's for sure.  Here's the actual
>> contents:
>> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/8.4/redhat/rhel-5-x86_64/repoview/
>
> That looks like he clicked on the direct download links. However you are
> correct the proper interface is Yum, not the web.
>
> You really should never see yum.pgsqlrpms.org. You should see

Can we change that? ;) it would be much nicer if it said yum.pgsqlrpms.org...

--
Magnus Hagander
Me: http://www.hagander.net/
Work: http://www.redpill-linpro.com/

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-06-14 at 15:44 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
> > > [DIR] Parent Directory -
> > > [DIR] fedora/ 13-Apr-2010 14:19 -
> > > [ ] pgdg-centos-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:51 4.1K
> > > [ ] pgdg-fedora-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:35 4.1K
> > > [ ] pgdg-redhat-8.4-2.noarch.rpm 15-Mar-2010 11:34 4.1K
> > > [DIR] redhat/ 17-Mar-2010 13:36 -
> > > [DIR] repodata/ 19-Apr-2010 16:24 -
> > >
>
> > Well, the point of Yum isn't the web interface; people are supposed to
> > get in via the yum tool. This may all work a lot better from there.
> >
> > However, what's missing from that link is actual instructions on using
> > the Yum repo.
> >
> > In fact, I don't know what that particular interface even is displaying;
> > it's not the actual contents of Yum, that's for sure. Here's the actual
> > contents:
> > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/8.4/redhat/rhel-5-x86_64/repoview/
>
> That looks like he clicked on the direct download links. However you are

Yes, I clicked on direct downloads, and I assume that is what someone
would want if they wanted the RPMs directly, and not via Yum, which
seems reasonable.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

FYI, all the problems I reported below still exist. However, I am
wondering how much I, as a community member, am supposed to care about
user download experience that is not controlled by the community, so I
am going to wait for actual download users to complain.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bruce Momjian wrote:
> As part of the mistaken debug/assert 8.4.4 RPM build, I started looking
> at the user experience of downloading these packages, and found the
> experience to be very poor.
>
> >From our download page, http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux#yum, I
> clicked on "PostgreSQL Yum repository".
>
> That points to a moved link that tells you to go to:
>
> https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki
>
> On that page, under "Configure Yum", you are supposed to click on "1.
> Yum", which didn't seem obvious to me.
>
> Then, once there, you see:
>
> Letter P
>
> Packages beginning with letter "P".
>
> * pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository Configuration
> * pgdg-fedora - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for Fedora - Yum Repository Configuration
> * pgdg-redhat - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for RHEL - Yum Repository Configuration
>
> What kind of title is "Letter P"? And all these downloads are marked as
> 9.0.X.
>
> Then, once you click on one, it seems fine, though has improved since
> yesterday after I complained to Josh Drake about a directory listing
> that was confusing.
>
> Back on the Yum download page there is a "Direct Download" section,
> which points to:
>
> https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Direct_download
>
> which shows:
>
> 8.4 - New release. Test before you upgrade.
>
> Which obviously is inaccurate because 8.4 has been out for many months now.
>
> The bottom line is that almost every page shows a laziness and
> sloppiness that makes the community look bad. Contrast this with
> Devrim's RPM repository, which is easy to understand:
>
> http://yum.pgrpms.org/
>
> Are there any other off-site download experiences as bad as the Yum one
> we link to now?
>
> --
> Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
> EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com
>
> + None of us is going to be here forever. +
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list (pgsql-www(at)postgresql(dot)org)
> To make changes to your subscription:
> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

I've certainly had reports from actual download users, and passed
those along. I think I've done it in private email to JD, so I'm just
confirming here that yes, we've seen those complaints from actual
users.

//Magnus

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 04:15, Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
>
> FYI, all the problems I reported below still exist.  However, I am
> wondering how much I, as a community member, am supposed to care about
> user download experience that is not controlled by the community, so I
> am going to wait for actual download users to complain.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> As part of the mistaken debug/assert 8.4.4 RPM build, I started looking
>> at the user experience of downloading these packages, and found the
>> experience to be very poor.
>>
>> >From our download page, http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux#yum, I
>> clicked on "PostgreSQL Yum repository".
>>
>> That points to a moved link that tells you to go to:
>>
>>       https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki
>>
>> On that page, under "Configure Yum", you are supposed to click on "1.
>> Yum", which didn't seem obvious to me.
>>
>> Then, once there, you see:
>>
>>       Letter P
>>
>>       Packages beginning with letter "P".
>>
>>           * pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository Configuration
>>           * pgdg-fedora - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for Fedora - Yum Repository Configuration
>>           * pgdg-redhat - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for RHEL - Yum Repository Configuration
>>
>> What kind of title is "Letter P"?  And all these downloads are marked as
>> 9.0.X.
>>
>> Then, once you click on one, it seems fine, though has improved since
>> yesterday after I complained to Josh Drake about a directory listing
>> that was confusing.
>>
>> Back on the Yum download page there is a "Direct Download" section,
>> which points to:
>>
>>       https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Direct_download
>>
>> which shows:
>>
>>       8.4 - New release. Test before you upgrade.
>>
>> Which obviously is inaccurate because 8.4 has been out for many months now.
>>
>> The bottom line is that almost every page shows a laziness and
>> sloppiness that makes the community look bad.  Contrast this with
>> Devrim's RPM repository, which is easy to understand:
>>
>>       http://yum.pgrpms.org/
>>
>> Are there any other off-site download experiences as bad as the Yum one
>> we link to now?
>>
>> --
>>   Bruce Momjian  <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>        http://momjian.us
>>   EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com
>>
>>   + None of us is going to be here forever. +
>>
>> --
>> Sent via pgsql-www mailing list (pgsql-www(at)postgresql(dot)org)
>> To make changes to your subscription:
>> http://www.postgresql.org/mailpref/pgsql-www
>
> --
>  Bruce Momjian  <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us>        http://momjian.us
>  EnterpriseDB                             http://enterprisedb.com
>

Magnus Hagander wrote:
> I've certainly had reports from actual download users, and passed
> those along. I think I've done it in private email to JD, so I'm just
> confirming here that yes, we've seen those complaints from actual
> users.

OK, so that means Command Prompt is not willing to correct problem
reports in a reasonable amount of time. I guess we, as a community,
either have to accept that or find another RPM/YUM supplier.

We don't attribute these packages to Command Prompt like we do for other
items on that page:

http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux

Should we do that, and would that help us avoid receiving problem
reports ourselves?

It is also confusing that that section mixes links to Command Prompt and
Devrim packages.

Please tell me our other download sections are also not such a huge
mess.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 10:42 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Magnus Hagander wrote:
> > I've certainly had reports from actual download users, and passed
> > those along. I think I've done it in private email to JD, so I'm just
> > confirming here that yes, we've seen those complaints from actual
> > users.
>
> OK, so that means Command Prompt is not willing to correct problem
> reports in a reasonable amount of time. I guess we, as a community,
> either have to accept that or find another RPM/YUM supplier.
>

Bruce if would mind keeping a grain of truth in what is actually going
on I would appreciate it. CMD has gone to great lengths, extreme lengths
to address every single concern that has come across the table on the
pgsqlrpms site.

The main problem here is you are ignorant of how RPM/YUM works. Which is
why you say things like, "What kind of letter is P".

When we get reports, we address them, directly. If you have specific and
constructive feedback to provide, that can create a better user
experience, I am all ears.

When Dave or Magnus have had specific illustration of how we can make it
better we have made strives to do so.

I admit I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who don't understand
how to install an RPM and type yum install. If you can give us some
bullet points where you feel it would be more useful for the user, I
would be happy to adjust the wiki page so its easier for users.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Bruce if would mind keeping a grain of truth in what is actually going
> on I would appreciate it. CMD has gone to great lengths, extreme lengths
> to address every single concern that has come across the table on the
> pgsqlrpms site.
>
> The main problem here is you are ignorant of how RPM/YUM works. Which is
> why you say things like, "What kind of letter is P".

Amazing you remember that item, but none of the other more substantive
items I mentioned in the thread that started here (and which you were
CC'ed on):

http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2010-06/msg00040.php

Things like broken links, an RPM page labeled 9.0 when it was for all PG
versions, and 8.4 labeled as "New release. Test before you upgrade".
How much more specific do you want? Care to respond to _any_ of those
other issues?

So, let's look at the process:

o I send an email stating serious problems and CC you
o Nothing changes
o I ask again
o You complain that I am concerned about the letter "P"
o I have to restate all my complaints and justify myself

I can only conclude that you don't really want to hear any of the valid
concerns I have, which is why I said the community either has to accept
that Command Prompt isn't interested in improving things in a timely
manner, or we have to look for another RPM supplier.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 12:12 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-www/2010-06/msg00040.php
>
> Things like broken links, an RPM page labeled 9.0 when it was for all PG
> versions, and 8.4 labeled as "New release. Test before you upgrade".
> How much more specific do you want? Care to respond to _any_ of those
> other issues?

Sure, I will respond in kind to each that you provide, answers provided
inline.

Bruce stated:

Then, once there, you see:

Letter P

Packages beginning with letter "P".

* pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository Configuration
* pgdg-fedora - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for Fedora - Yum Repository Configuration
* pgdg-redhat - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for RHEL - Yum Repository Configuration

What kind of title is "Letter P"? And all these downloads are marked as
9.0.X.

JD: This is how YUM does it. I told you this.

Back on the Yum download page there is a "Direct Download" section,
which points to:

https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Direct_download

which shows:

8.4 - New release. Test before you upgrade.

Which obviously is inaccurate because 8.4 has been out for many months now.

JD: Which is completely accurate. 8.4 is the new release and you should
test before you upgrade.

JD: Anything else you would like to bring up based on your "poor
experience"?

JD Disclaimer: I just made some changes to the wiki pages to reflect the
EOL status of 7.4/8.0/8.1. I also made a separate page for configuring
Yum since it appears part of the complaints is that it isn't newbie
friendly enough.

I may not always respond to emails that aren't on the top of my radar.
Others have realized that there are much better ways to get a hold of
me. Like private messaging on IRC (which you have done with better
results than email) or for goodness sake, calling me.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> I may not always respond to emails that aren't on the top of my radar.
> Others have realized that there are much better ways to get a hold of
> me. Like private messaging on IRC (which you have done with better
> results than email) or for goodness sake, calling me.

You obviously read my email because you remembered the "Letter P" text.
Based on your comments, I stand by my analysis.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 12:40 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > I may not always respond to emails that aren't on the top of my radar.
> > Others have realized that there are much better ways to get a hold of
> > me. Like private messaging on IRC (which you have done with better
> > results than email) or for goodness sake, calling me.
>
> You obviously read my email because you remembered the "Letter P" text.
> Based on your comments, I stand by my analysis.

I didn't read the email until you complained last night because it was
in-line and I happened to see it.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 12:40 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
> > Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> > > I may not always respond to emails that aren't on the top of my radar.
> > > Others have realized that there are much better ways to get a hold of
> > > me. Like private messaging on IRC (which you have done with better
> > > results than email) or for goodness sake, calling me.
> >
> > You obviously read my email because you remembered the "Letter P" text.
> > Based on your comments, I stand by my analysis.
>
> I didn't read the email until you complained last night because it was
> in-line and I happened to see it.

Your basic approach is to try to mention the most stupid item I found
and try to minimize the problems. I don't have time to drag your nose
multiple times into every little problem you have, and you obviously
don't care to objectively review my complaints and make improvements,
hence my conclusions.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

Bruce,

I have addressed your complaints.

I adjusted the pages as my disclaimer stated.

Thank you for your feedback.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> wrote:
> Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 12:40 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
>> > Joshua D. Drake wrote:
>> > > I may not always respond to emails that aren't on the top of my radar.
>> > > Others have realized that there are much better ways to get a hold of
>> > > me. Like private messaging on IRC (which you have done with better
>> > > results than email) or for goodness sake, calling me.
>> >
>> > You obviously read my email because you remembered the "Letter P" text.
>> > Based on your comments, I stand by my analysis.
>>
>> I didn't read the email until you complained last night because it was
>> in-line and I happened to see it.
>
> Your basic approach is to try to mention the most stupid item I found
> and try to minimize the problems.  I don't have time to drag your nose
> multiple times into every little problem you have, and you obviously
> don't care to objectively review my complaints and make improvements,
> hence my conclusions.

This discussion seems to contain more heat than light. Let me state,
first of all, and categorically, that I really don't care whether we
point people to CommandPrompt's RPMs, Devrim's RPMs, or some other set
of RPMs. Having said that, I do think there are a couple of real
problems here.

1. The download page has three links to yum.pgsqlrpms.org. Two of
those links have a look and feel that is similar to postgresql.org.
The other one redirects to a commandprompt.com web site with a
completely different look and feel, which asks you to click through to
another commandprompt.com web site with a third look and feel. There
should really be just one look and feel here, not three (and useless
click-through manual redirects).

2. https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki (which is
where you eventually get from http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/) links to
https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Configure_Yum,
while the download page has a link to a separate YUM HOWTO at
http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php; if we need two links to the
information on configuration YUM, both should go to the same place.

3. Both YUM HOWTOs claim that they will take you to a page where you
can choose your operating system version and preferred PostgreSQL
version, but both in fact go to
http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html which
claims to be specifically 9.0 packages. Only after clicking into one
of these packages do you realize that older versions are also
available.

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise Postgres Company

On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 16:47 -0400, Robert Haas wrote:

> 1. The download page has three links to yum.pgsqlrpms.org. Two of
> those links have a look and feel that is similar to postgresql.org.
> The other one redirects to a commandprompt.com web site with a
> completely different look and feel, which asks you to click through to
> another commandprompt.com web site with a third look and feel. There
> should really be just one look and feel here, not three (and useless
> click-through manual redirects).

This is the case with both the main external projects for downloads (see
the one click installer for example)

>
> 2. https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki (which is
> where you eventually get from http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/)

This has been fixed. If you go to yum.pgsqlrpms.org it takes you
directly to the project page now.

> links to
> https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Configure_Yum,
> while the download page has a link to a separate YUM HOWTO at
> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php; if we need two links to the
> information on configuration YUM, both should go to the same place.

I am not sure where you see that. Configure_Yum has no external links to
a howotoyum.php ???. It has a 3 step process and a single exception.

>
> 3. Both YUM HOWTOs claim that they will take you to a page where you
> can choose your operating system version and preferred PostgreSQL
> version, but both in fact go to

Again, not sure where you see two (please provide more info)

> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html which
> claims to be specifically 9.0 packages.

What? Oh I see this:

pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository

I will see about getting the 9.0.X removed from that.

> Only after clicking into one
> of these packages do you realize that older versions are also
> available.

That isn't true, the list is right there on the page and is explained on
the Configure_Yum page.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

>

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 16:47 -0400, Robert Haas wrote:
>
> > 1. The download page has three links to yum.pgsqlrpms.org. Two of
> > those links have a look and feel that is similar to postgresql.org.
> > The other one redirects to a commandprompt.com web site with a
> > completely different look and feel, which asks you to click through to
> > another commandprompt.com web site with a third look and feel. There
> > should really be just one look and feel here, not three (and useless
> > click-through manual redirects).
>
> This is the case with both the main external projects for downloads (see
> the one click installer for example)
>
> >
> > 2. https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki (which is
> > where you eventually get from http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/)
>
> This has been fixed. If you go to yum.pgsqlrpms.org it takes you
> directly to the project page now.

Well, it does that now, but it didn't do that 8 hours ago when I was
re-reporing this problem.

> > http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html which
> > claims to be specifically 9.0 packages.
>
> What? Oh I see this:
>
> pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository
>
> I will see about getting the 9.0.X removed from that.

Again, something I reported weeks ago.

> > Only after clicking into one
> > of these packages do you realize that older versions are also
> > available.
>
> That isn't true, the list is right there on the page and is explained on
> the Configure_Yum page.

A link that says 9.0.X makes you think the link is only for 9.0 stuff.
How could you intepret it any other way?

Again, this just points out that you have to jump through 10 hoops to
prove there is something that can be improved about the Command Prompt
RPM site --- a major waste of time, and a good reason to look for
alternatives.

--
Bruce Momjian <bruce(at)momjian(dot)us> http://momjian.us
EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

+ None of us is going to be here forever. +

On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 17:38 -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:

Bruce you and I are obviously having a communication disconnect. I very
simply understood what Robert said. Sorry we are having a hard time. You
can stop being difficult now.

Robert, if you could provide the specific info I requested that would be
great. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:
> On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 16:47 -0400, Robert Haas wrote:
>
>> 1. The download page has three links to yum.pgsqlrpms.org.  Two of
>> those links have a look and feel that is similar to postgresql.org.
>> The other one redirects to a commandprompt.com web site with a
>> completely different look and feel, which asks you to click through to
>> another commandprompt.com web site with a third look and feel.  There
>> should really be just one look and feel here, not three (and useless
>> click-through manual redirects).
>
> This is the case with both the main external projects for downloads (see
> the one click installer for example)

Uhm, no it isn't. I'm not talking about the fact that you have
CommandPrompt branding on your pages; I'm talking about the fact that
you have multiple links that go to pages with different branding. On
this page:

http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux

For the one-click installers, the only link is to
http://www.enterprisedb.com/products/pgdownload.do

For the RPMs, there are links to:

http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/
http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/news-packagelist.php
http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php

The first of these links has a different look and feel than the other two.

>> 2. https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki (which is
>> where you eventually get from http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/)
>
> This has been fixed. If you go to yum.pgsqlrpms.org it takes you
> directly to the project page now.

Looks better.

>> links to
>> https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Configure_Yum,
>> while the download page has a link to a separate YUM HOWTO at
>> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php; if we need two links to the
>> information on configuration YUM, both should go to the same place.
>
> I am not sure where you see that. Configure_Yum has no external links to
> a howotoyum.php ???. It has a 3 step process and a single exception.

You need to back up a step and look at the download page on
postgresql.org. That is where the link to howtoyum.php is located.

>> 3. Both YUM HOWTOs claim that they will take you to a page where you
>> can choose your operating system version and preferred PostgreSQL
>> version, but both in fact go to
>
> Again, not sure where you see two (please provide more info)

Again, there's one on http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux
pointing to http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php and one on
https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki going to
https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki/Configure_Yum

>> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/reporpms/repoview/letter_p.group.html which
>> claims to be specifically 9.0 packages.
>
> What? Oh I see this:
>
> pgdg-centos - PostgreSQL 9.0.X PGDG RPMs for CentOS - Yum Repository
>
> I will see about getting the 9.0.X removed from that.

That would definitely be less confusing. Also, the page that points
you there should say - first choose your architecture - then you'll
get another page where you can pick your PG version.

>> Only after clicking into one
>> of these packages do you realize that older versions are also
>> available.
>
> That isn't true, the list is right there on the page and is explained on
> the Configure_Yum page.

Well, it appears to be true, because of the 9.0.X bit.

--
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise Postgres Company

On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 18:09 -0400, Robert Haas wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Joshua D. Drake <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 16:47 -0400, Robert Haas wrote:
> >
> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/
> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/news-packagelist.php
> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php
>
> The first of these links has a different look and feel than the other two.

AHA! I thought you were talking on pgsqlrpms. O.k. I can get the
download page updated. So that all info goes to the correct place.

> a howotoyum.php ???. It has a 3 step process and a single exception.
> You need to back up a step and look at the download page on
> postgresql.org. That is where the link to howtoyum.php is located.
>

Yeah caught that above.

Seems much of the confusion now lies in an outdated .org download page
(sans the 9.0.x bit). I will get that fixed.

> > That isn't true, the list is right there on the page and is explained on
> > the Configure_Yum page.
>
> Well, it appears to be true, because of the 9.0.X bit.
>

Right I have got a ticket open to fix that 9.0.x bit. Should be fixed by
Monday.

Thanks,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering

On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 18:09 -0400, Robert Haas wrote:

> For the RPMs, there are links to:
>
> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/
> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/news-packagelist.php
> http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/howtoyum.php
>

I have removed the references to these links. The new references point
to https://public.commandprompt.com/projects/pgcore/wiki
and /pgcore/wiki/Configure_Yum respectively.

You can see the changes here:

http://jd.webdev.postgresql.org/download/linux

They should show up in the next couple of hours.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--
PostgreSQL.org Major Contributor
Command Prompt, Inc: http://www.commandprompt.com/ - 509.416.6579
Consulting, Training, Support, Custom Development, Engineering