Re: plz unsubscribe me

please unsubscribe from this
thank u

In response to "rama krishna" <arkr505(at)gmail(dot)com>:

> please unsubscribe from this
> thank u
>

Instructions are in the mail headers of each message:

List-Archive: <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general>
List-Help: <mailto:majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org?body=help>
List-ID: <pgsql-general.postgresql.org>
List-Owner: <mailto:pgsql-general-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org>
List-Post: <mailto:pgsql-general(at)postgresql(dot)org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org?body=sub%20pgsql-general>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org?body=unsub%20pgsql-general>

--
Bill Moran
Collaborative Fusion Inc.

Bill Moran wrote:
> In response to "rama krishna" <arkr505(at)gmail(dot)com>:
>
>> please unsubscribe from this
>> thank u
>>
>
> Instructions are in the mail headers of each message:
>
> List-Archive: <http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general>
> List-Help: <mailto:majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org?body=help>
> List-ID: <pgsql-general.postgresql.org>
> List-Owner: <mailto:pgsql-general-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org>
> List-Post: <mailto:pgsql-general(at)postgresql(dot)org>
> List-Subscribe: <mailto:majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org?body=sub%20pgsql-general>
> List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org?body=unsub%20pgsql-general>
>

Actually it is quite ridiculous that we expect someone to read the mail
headers.

Joshua D. Drake

--

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/

"Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
> Bill Moran wrote:
>> Instructions are in the mail headers of each message:

> Actually it is quite ridiculous that we expect someone to read the mail
> headers.

Those headers are really there for mail programs to read. On my MUA
(a several-years-old version of exmh), messages containing these headers
causes an additional menu entry to appear, with List/Unsubscribe and
some other options. I suppose there are still people using mailers that
don't know about RFC2369, but considering that that standard was
published in 1998, there's not a whole lot of excuse for that.

In any case, we also expend bandwidth on a couple of footer TIPs that
remind people how to unsubscribe. Maybe one of them should explicitly
say that mailing to the list is not the way.

regards, tom lane

Tom Lane wrote:
> "Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
>> Bill Moran wrote:
>>> Instructions are in the mail headers of each message:
>
>> Actually it is quite ridiculous that we expect someone to read the mail
>> headers.
>
> Those headers are really there for mail programs to read. On my MUA
> (a several-years-old version of exmh), messages containing these headers
> causes an additional menu entry to appear, with List/Unsubscribe and
> some other options. I suppose there are still people using mailers that
> don't know about RFC2369, but considering that that standard was
> published in 1998, there's not a whole lot of excuse for that.

Thunderbird, which I expect MANY of our community users are using does
nothing with those headers (as far as I can tell).

Outlook and Outlook express, which many of our community users will be
using in the future (by nature of our win32 port) to my knowledge does
nothing with those headers.

I know that Evolution has some functionality based on those headers, but
no one in their right might would use it (yes that it a blatant smack).

I also seriously doubt that Apple Mail or Mac Mail (whatever it is
called) does anything with the headers either.

>
> In any case, we also expend bandwidth on a couple of footer TIPs that
> remind people how to unsubscribe. Maybe one of them should explicitly
> say that mailing to the list is not the way.

Our lists (the @postgresql.org ones) are the only lists to which I
subscribe that do not put the unsubscribe info at the bottom of every
email sent to the list.

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

>
> regards, tom lane
>

--

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/

In response to "Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com>:

> Tom Lane wrote:
> > "Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
> >> Bill Moran wrote:
> >>> Instructions are in the mail headers of each message:
> >
> >> Actually it is quite ridiculous that we expect someone to read the mail
> >> headers.

I don't find it so. That's like saying it's ridiculous to expect the
average auto owner to change the oil every 3000 miles. Reading headers
isn't a terribly esoteric thing to do. I taught an "intro to email" class
back in 2000 and spent about 5 minutes explaining headers and what they
meant. The students didn't have any difficulty grasping the concept, and
I got the impression that they found the information enlightening.

> > Those headers are really there for mail programs to read. On my MUA
> > (a several-years-old version of exmh), messages containing these headers
> > causes an additional menu entry to appear, with List/Unsubscribe and
> > some other options. I suppose there are still people using mailers that
> > don't know about RFC2369, but considering that that standard was
> > published in 1998, there's not a whole lot of excuse for that.
>
> Thunderbird, which I expect MANY of our community users are using does
> nothing with those headers (as far as I can tell).

I've never been a big fan of Thunderbird.

> Outlook and Outlook express, which many of our community users will be
> using in the future (by nature of our win32 port) to my knowledge does
> nothing with those headers.

It's a shame that nobody at Microsoft is smart enough to figure it out.

The thing that really gets me is that Sylpheed doesn't use them ...

> Our lists (the @postgresql.org ones) are the only lists to which I
> subscribe that do not put the unsubscribe info at the bottom of every
> email sent to the list.

I guess that makes RFC2369 another great idea that nobody's paying attention
to ...

shame ...

--
Bill Moran
Collaborative Fusion Inc.

There are good reasons why that is not a feature found in many popular
email clients. The biggest of which is that if it was people would use
it all the time and spammers would abuse it as a way to cull current
email addresses. As a matter of fact, most large esp's encourage their
clients to not use any unsubscribe links in unsolicited email (spam) due
the this type of practice. Microsoft's moving towards a system using it
(it's currently in their Hotmail Live Beta) that only gives the
unsubscribe option if the sender is in the recipient's address book or
the recipient has previously ok'd the sender as being legit.

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
>> "Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
>>> Bill Moran wrote:
>>>> Instructions are in the mail headers of each message:
>>
>>> Actually it is quite ridiculous that we expect someone to read the
>>> mail headers.
>>
>> Those headers are really there for mail programs to read. On my MUA
>> (a several-years-old version of exmh), messages containing these headers
>> causes an additional menu entry to appear, with List/Unsubscribe and
>> some other options. I suppose there are still people using mailers that
>> don't know about RFC2369, but considering that that standard was
>> published in 1998, there's not a whole lot of excuse for that.
>
> Thunderbird, which I expect MANY of our community users are using does
> nothing with those headers (as far as I can tell).
>
> Outlook and Outlook express, which many of our community users will be
> using in the future (by nature of our win32 port) to my knowledge does
> nothing with those headers.
>
> I know that Evolution has some functionality based on those headers,
> but no one in their right might would use it (yes that it a blatant
> smack).
>
> I also seriously doubt that Apple Mail or Mac Mail (whatever it is
> called) does anything with the headers either.
>
>>
>> In any case, we also expend bandwidth on a couple of footer TIPs that
>> remind people how to unsubscribe. Maybe one of them should explicitly
>> say that mailing to the list is not the way.
>
> Our lists (the @postgresql.org ones) are the only lists to which I
> subscribe that do not put the unsubscribe info at the bottom of every
> email sent to the list.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Joshua D. Drake
>
>
>>
>> regards, tom lane
>>
>
>

--
erik jones <erik(at)myemma(dot)com>
software development
emma(r)

Bill Moran wrote:
> In response to "Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com>:
>
>> Tom Lane wrote:
>>> "Joshua D. Drake" <jd(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
>>>> Bill Moran wrote:
>>>>> Instructions are in the mail headers of each message:
>>>> Actually it is quite ridiculous that we expect someone to read the mail
>>>> headers.
>
> I don't find it so. That's like saying it's ridiculous to expect the
> average auto owner to change the oil every 3000 miles. Reading headers

Uhh... no. A better analogy would be:

expecting an average postgresql user to vacuum

Which is completely different then expecting the average user to have a
clue or care what an email header is. Email headers are part of the
source code of email, not part of the usage to users (man that sounds
weird).

> isn't a terribly esoteric thing to do. I taught an "intro to email" class
> back in 2000 and spent about 5 minutes explaining headers and what they
> meant. The students didn't have any difficulty grasping the concept, and
> I got the impression that they found the information enlightening.

All due respect, but you are the 2% of the 98%. Not a common user,
frankly no common DBA should ever have to read email headers, ever. That
is what an systems administrator is for (sometimes, yes they are one and
the same).

>> Our lists (the @postgresql.org ones) are the only lists to which I
>> subscribe that do not put the unsubscribe info at the bottom of every
>> email sent to the list.
>
> I guess that makes RFC2369 another great idea that nobody's paying attention
> to ...
>
> shame ...

Now that I won't disagree with but then again, when was the last time
you say a compliant web browser? ;)

Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drake

--

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/

Tom Lane wrote:

> In any case, we also expend bandwidth on a couple of footer TIPs that
> remind people how to unsubscribe. Maybe one of them should explicitly
> say that mailing to the list is not the way.

One of them talks about "unregister", because of which you'd think we're
already covered. Getting much more verbose than that is a waste,
because you're then entering the territory of people who's not smart
enough to read the tips at the bottom.

On the other hand, the people soliciting unsubscription on the list
itself is not that many. I did a simple-minded research a couple of
months ago, based on the unsubscription requests to the pgsql-es-ayuda
list (which was, I'd say, ten times more frequent than for all the
english lists I'm on, combined); versus people who unsubscribed
correctly using the Majordomo interface. The latter were much more
numerous than I had expected.

So I don't think we should do anything about it. It's not really a
serious problem.

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

Alvaro Herrera <alvherre(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
> So I don't think we should do anything about it. It's not really a
> serious problem.

Actually, what I'd like to see done is to get majordomo to bounce list
messages containing "unsubscribe" in the subject, with an explanatory
message about the right way to unsubscribe. There's no reason the rest
of us should be bothered.

regards, tom lane

Tom Lane wrote:
> Alvaro Herrera <alvherre(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
>> So I don't think we should do anything about it. It's not really a
>> serious problem.
>
> Actually, what I'd like to see done is to get majordomo to bounce list
> messages containing "unsubscribe" in the subject, with an explanatory
> message about the right way to unsubscribe. There's no reason the rest
> of us should be bothered.

I would agree with that.

Joshua D. Drake

>
> regards, tom lane
>

--

=== The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. ===
Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240
Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997
http://www.commandprompt.com/

Roman Neuhauser wrote:
> # tgl(at)sss(dot)pgh(dot)pa(dot)us / 2006-08-30 14:11:11 -0400:
> > Alvaro Herrera <alvherre(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
> > > So I don't think we should do anything about it. It's not really a
> > > serious problem.
> >
> > Actually, what I'd like to see done is to get majordomo to bounce list
> > messages containing "unsubscribe" in the subject, with an explanatory
> > message about the right way to unsubscribe. There's no reason the rest
> > of us should be bothered.
>
> Please at least make it at least /^subject:\s*unsubscribe\s*$/i
> so it doesn't bounce valid mail.

Which is why this particular thread would have made it to the list
anyway (as it did).

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc.

On Wednesday 30 August 2006 14:14, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
> > Alvaro Herrera <alvherre(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
> >> So I don't think we should do anything about it. It's not really a
> >> serious problem.
> >
> > Actually, what I'd like to see done is to get majordomo to bounce list
> > messages containing "unsubscribe" in the subject, with an explanatory
> > message about the right way to unsubscribe. There's no reason the rest
> > of us should be bothered.
>
> I would agree with that.
>

That could be fun on the slony lists... :-)

--
Robert Treat
Build A Brighter LAMP :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Tom Lane opined:
> Actually, what I'd like to see done is to get majordomo to bounce list
> messages containing "unsubscribe" in the subject, with an explanatory
> message about the right way to unsubscribe. There's no reason the rest
> of us should be bothered.

I've set it up to hold messages with "subscribe" in the subject line
for moderator approval. Which means any more replies to this thread
will be held as well, of course. :)

For the record, I unsubbed the original complainer after his first post,
so he didn't get a chance to see all the fun he stirred up.

- --
Greg Sabino Mullane greg(at)turnstep(dot)com
End Point Corporation
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200608301626
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8
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=SoHl
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

# erik(at)myemma(dot)com / 2006-08-30 12:32:21 -0500:
> There are good reasons why that is not a feature found in many popular
> email clients. The biggest of which is that if it was people would use
> it all the time and spammers would abuse it as a way to cull current
> email addresses.

IOW getting rid of the web subscription form would probably
cut a nice dent into the "Subject: unsubscribe" heap.

--
How many Vietnam vets does it take to screw in a light bulb?
You don't know, man. You don't KNOW.
Cause you weren't THERE. http://bash.org/?255991

# tgl(at)sss(dot)pgh(dot)pa(dot)us / 2006-08-30 14:11:11 -0400:
> Alvaro Herrera <alvherre(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
> > So I don't think we should do anything about it. It's not really a
> > serious problem.
>
> Actually, what I'd like to see done is to get majordomo to bounce list
> messages containing "unsubscribe" in the subject, with an explanatory
> message about the right way to unsubscribe. There's no reason the rest
> of us should be bothered.

Please at least make it at least /^subject:\s*unsubscribe\s*$/i
so it doesn't bounce valid mail.

--
How many Vietnam vets does it take to screw in a light bulb?
You don't know, man. You don't KNOW.
Cause you weren't THERE. http://bash.org/?255991

On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 02:11:11PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
>
> Actually, what I'd like to see done is to get majordomo to bounce list
> messages containing "unsubscribe" in the subject, with an explanatory
> message about the right way to unsubscribe. There's no reason the rest
> of us should be bothered.

Or what about automatically unsubscribing at that point? (In spite
of other ways it's awful, mailman does that rather well.)

A

--
Andrew Sullivan | ajs(at)crankycanuck(dot)ca
This work was visionary and imaginative, and goes to show that visionary
and imaginative work need not end up well.
--Dennis Ritchie

> Or what about automatically unsubscribing at that point? (In spite
> of other ways it's awful, mailman does that rather well.)

... and voila, you (and now myself) could have been unsubscribed
yourself on this mail... it's not that hard to have any specific string
by mistake on your subject line...

Cheers,
Csaba.

Andrew Sullivan wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2006 at 02:11:11PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> >
> > Actually, what I'd like to see done is to get majordomo to bounce list
> > messages containing "unsubscribe" in the subject, with an explanatory
> > message about the right way to unsubscribe. There's no reason the rest
> > of us should be bothered.
>
> Or what about automatically unsubscribing at that point? (In spite
> of other ways it's awful, mailman does that rather well.)

Some creative nice guy will start faking unsubscribe attempts
eventually. It happened to me once.

--
Alvaro Herrera http://www.CommandPrompt.com/
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support

Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> Actually it is quite ridiculous that we expect someone to read the mail
> headers.

But relatively reasonable to assume that one could unsubscribe if they
can figure out how to subscribe..

--
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
- Benjamin Franklin

Joshua D. Drake wrote:
> Tom Lane wrote:
>> Alvaro Herrera <alvherre(at)commandprompt(dot)com> writes:
>>> So I don't think we should do anything about it. It's not really a
>>> serious problem.
>>
>> Actually, what I'd like to see done is to get majordomo to bounce list
>> messages containing "unsubscribe" in the subject, with an explanatory
>> message about the right way to unsubscribe. There's no reason the rest
>> of us should be bothered.
>
> I would agree with that.

Problem is, half the time they don't spell it correctly..

--
Until later, Geoffrey

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
- Benjamin Franklin

Am 2006-09-07 17:26:15, schrieb Csaba Nagy:
> > Or what about automatically unsubscribing at that point? (In spite
> > of other ways it's awful, mailman does that rather well.)
>
> ... and voila, you (and now myself) could have been unsubscribed
> yourself on this mail... it's not that hard to have any specific string
> by mistake on your subject line...

You can eliminate such things by checking
the Subject line for Re: AW: SV: and such.

:0
* ! ^Subject:.*Re:
* ^Subject:.*(subscribe|subscribel|suscribe)
/dev/null

Greetings
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi
0033/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

> You can eliminate such things by checking
> the Subject line for Re: AW: SV: and such.
>
> :0
> * ! ^Subject:.*Re:
> * ^Subject:.*(subscribe|subscribel|suscribe)
> /dev/null

... which still doesn't cover "RE" translated in most of the world's
languages, which I'm sure occasionally pop up from people who use
localized mail clients.

And of course it can't ever cover the legitimate usages of unsubscribe,
which could be common for example when you're speaking about a (slony or
other) replication node...

Cheers,
Csaba.

Am 2006-09-11 10:23:25, schrieb Csaba Nagy:
> > You can eliminate such things by checking
> > the Subject line for Re: AW: SV: and such.
> >
> > :0
> > * ! ^Subject:.*Re:
> > * ^Subject:.*(subscribe|subscribel|suscribe)
> > /dev/null
>
> ... which still doesn't cover "RE" translated in most of the world's
> languages, which I'm sure occasionally pop up from people who use
> localized mail clients.

* ! ^Subject:.*(Re|AW|Antwort|Reply|Reponse|Sv):

Better?

Greetings
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi
0033/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

> > ... which still doesn't cover "RE" translated in most of the world's
> > languages, which I'm sure occasionally pop up from people who use
> > localized mail clients.
>
> * ! ^Subject:.*(Re|AW|Antwort|Reply|Reponse|Sv):
>
> Better?

The point was that you will never ever be able to cover all the variants
existing in the weirdest email clients... however hard you try. You
missed Hungarian which is my native language for example ;-)

Cheers,
Csaba.

On Mon, 2006-09-18 at 03:23, Csaba Nagy wrote:
> > > ... which still doesn't cover "RE" translated in most of the world's
> > > languages, which I'm sure occasionally pop up from people who use
> > > localized mail clients.
> >
> > * ! ^Subject:.*(Re|AW|Antwort|Reply|Reponse|Sv):
> >
> > Better?
>
> The point was that you will never ever be able to cover all the variants
> existing in the weirdest email clients... however hard you try. You
> missed Hungarian which is my native language for example ;-)

I wouldn't mind terribly getting an occasional "clippy" message like:

It looks like you're trying to unsubscribe from this mailing list.

Would you like some help with doing that?

As opposed to a message "You've been unsubscribed" After sending
something about slony to the list...

Would that work for most people?

> I wouldn't mind terribly getting an occasional "clippy" message like:
>
> It looks like you're trying to unsubscribe from this mailing list.
>
> Would you like some help with doing that?
>
> As opposed to a message "You've been unsubscribed" After sending
> something about slony to the list...
>
> Would that work for most people?

Yes, that's reasonable. Automatically unsubscribing is not...

Cheers,
Csaba.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>> Would that work for most people?
>Yes, that's reasonable. Automatically unsubscribing is not...

Um, can we close this thread now? First, the fix for this list was
already put in place some time ago, so this is totally academic.
Second, I'm tired of manually approving your posts, so at least
change the subject line! :)

Thanks,
- --
Greg Sabino Mullane greg(at)turnstep(dot)com
End Point Corporation
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 200609181453
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8
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Am 2006-09-18 10:23:21, schrieb Csaba Nagy:

> The point was that you will never ever be able to cover all the variants
> existing in the weirdest email clients... however hard you try. You
> missed Hungarian which is my native language for example ;-)

But such things can be added later...

My strings hit nearly ALL *subscribe mails.

Greetings
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi
0033/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

Note: this gets way off topic for this list. And the problem was solved
too in a satisfying manner...

And the new subject line will trigger quite a few adult SPAM filters too
;-)

> > The point was that you will never ever be able to cover all the variants
> > existing in the weirdest email clients... however hard you try. You
> > missed Hungarian which is my native language for example ;-)
>
> But such things can be added later...
>
> My strings hit nearly ALL *subscribe mails.

It would be unacceptable to un_subs_cribe (hope this escaping avoids the
moderation trigger) anybody because the filter is not good enough, even
if it can be improved later... moderation based on such filter is OK,
which is already done.

Cheers,
Csaba.