Re: [ANNOUNCE] Sun supporting PostgreSQL

Community members:

Today, Sun announced that they would be supporting and shipping PostgreSQL
as a part of Solaris distribution. The press release should be here very
soon, if it's not already:
http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/web_sunflash.html

This should come as no surprise to the hackers in our community who've
noticed an increasing number of @sun.com addresses on the pgsql-hackers
list in the last few months. Sun's support for PostgreSQL will involve:
help in optimizing for Solaris; DTrace; Solaris packages; sponsorship of
community members and projects; and direct contributions/advice from Sun
engineers on database performance. More later as this stuff actually
gets rolling.

I think almost everyone here will agree with me that Sun is a very welcome
addition to our community of corporate supporters.

--
--Josh Berkus

Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Project Core Team
www.postgresql.org

(all opinions expressed are my own; I do not speak
for the Project unless specifically noted.)

Wow, it takes a *long* time to process 21k subscribers ... I take it
you've now received also? I just checked the newsgroup pgsql.general and
it too received it ...

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005, Josh Berkus wrote:

> Community members:
>
> Today, Sun announced that they would be supporting and shipping PostgreSQL
> as a part of Solaris distribution. The press release should be here very
> soon, if it's not already:
> http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/web_sunflash.html
>
> This should come as no surprise to the hackers in our community who've
> noticed an increasing number of @sun.com addresses on the pgsql-hackers
> list in the last few months. Sun's support for PostgreSQL will involve:
> help in optimizing for Solaris; DTrace; Solaris packages; sponsorship of
> community members and projects; and direct contributions/advice from Sun
> engineers on database performance. More later as this stuff actually
> gets rolling.
>
> I think almost everyone here will agree with me that Sun is a very welcome
> addition to our community of corporate supporters.
>
> --
> --Josh Berkus
>
> Josh Berkus
> PostgreSQL Project Core Team
> www.postgresql.org
>
> (all opinions expressed are my own; I do not speak
> for the Project unless specifically noted.)
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
>

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy(at)hub(dot)org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

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Hi,

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005, Josh Berkus wrote:

> http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/web_sunflash.html

http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2005-11/sunflash.20051117.1.html

Josh, can you contact with those guys and please make them correct the
spellings of PostgreSQL (Postgres, PostgresSQL, etc...) in the press link
I provided above?

Regards,
- --
Devrim GUNDUZ
Kivi Bilişim Teknolojileri - http://www.kivi.com.tr
devrim~gunduz.org, devrim~PostgreSQL.org, devrim.gunduz~linux.org.tr
http://www.gunduz.org
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>From pgsql-advocacy-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org Fri Nov 18 15:34:52 2005
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Message-ID: <437E1855(dot)5090405(at)j-davis(dot)com>
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 10:07:17 -0800
From: Jeff Davis <pgsql(at)j-davis(dot)com>
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Slashdot accepted my article:

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/11/18/0656204&tid=102&tid=221&tid=218

Hopefully it raises awareness that PostgreSQL is highly respected among
big companies. Slashdot has had some very positive stories about
PostgreSQL lately.

Regards,
Jeff Davis

> Sun's support for PostgreSQL will involve:

*snip*

> sponsorship of community members and projects;

Given the focus of Sun on fault-tolerance etc., one of THE projects
that they should definitely sponsor is
http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgreplication/projdisplay.php

Sincerely,

Wolfgang Keller

On Fri, 2005-11-18 at 11:00 +0100, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
> Given the focus of Sun on fault-tolerance etc., one of THE projects
> that they should definitely sponsor is
> http://gborg.postgresql.org/project/pgreplication/projdisplay.php

AFAIK pgreplication is no longer active. However, the Slony II project
is based on the same theoretical foundation (Kemme's Postgres-R work),
and is under active development. The website is http://www.slony2.org;
Gavin's talk is worth reading. We should have more information on the
details of the design available soon.

-Neil

Devrim,

> Josh, can you contact with those guys and please make them correct the
> spellings of PostgreSQL (Postgres, PostgresSQL, etc...) in the press link
> I provided above?

I'm afraid that the use of Postgres was on purpose. :-( It's because of
Marc's trademark again.

I'm going to be meeting with attorneys on Monday and hopefully we can get this
trademark thing fixed.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Core Team
josh(at)postgresql(dot)org

(unless specifically indicated, all opinions in the above
e-mail are my own, and should not be taken as opinions of
the Project as a whole.)

Devrim,

> Josh, can you contact with those guys and please make them correct the
> spellings of PostgreSQL (Postgres, PostgresSQL, etc...) in the press link
> I provided above?

Unfortunately, it's on purpose. It's Marc's trademark again. I can say
"PostgreSQL" but Sun's PR people are afraid to. :-(

I'm meeting some trademark attorneys on Monday, hopefully we can straighten
this out and stop having these issues.

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Josh Berkus wrote:

> Devrim,
>
>> Josh, can you contact with those guys and please make them correct the
>> spellings of PostgreSQL (Postgres, PostgresSQL, etc...) in the press link
>> I provided above?
>
> Unfortunately, it's on purpose. It's Marc's trademark again. I can say
> "PostgreSQL" but Sun's PR people are afraid to. :-(

Funny thing is that they use PostgreSQL throughout the press release, they
seem to mix-n-match it ...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy(at)hub(dot)org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

Josh Berkus wrote:
> Unfortunately, it's on purpose. It's Marc's trademark again. I can
> say "PostgreSQL" but Sun's PR people are afraid to. :-(

I have got to meet these people's trademark attorneys (Sun, Pervasive)
who think that they can't say "PostgreSQL" but can say "Postgres" or
"PostgresSQL" with impunity. I really need to have a meeting with them
because I'm not sure how my Orakle support program is going to work
out.

Peter,

> I have got to meet these people's trademark attorneys (Sun, Pervasive)
> who think that they can't say "PostgreSQL" but can say "Postgres" or
> "PostgresSQL" with impunity. I really need to have a meeting with them
> because I'm not sure how my Orakle support program is going to work
> out.

<grin> or M$$QL?

--
Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Peter Eisentraut wrote:

> Josh Berkus wrote:
>> Unfortunately, it's on purpose. It's Marc's trademark again. I can
>> say "PostgreSQL" but Sun's PR people are afraid to. :-(
>
> I have got to meet these people's trademark attorneys (Sun, Pervasive)
> who think that they can't say "PostgreSQL" but can say "Postgres" or
> "PostgresSQL" with impunity. I really need to have a meeting with them
> because I'm not sure how my Orakle support program is going to work
> out.

The funny thing is its only "the big companies" that seem concerned about
this ... and even then, there are big companies that don't have an issue
with using the name: SRA and Fujitsu being two that come to mind ...
*shrug*

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy(at)hub(dot)org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

On Fri, Nov 18, 2005 at 04:41:52PM -0400, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> The funny thing is its only "the big companies" that seem concerned about
> this ... and even then, there are big companies that don't have an issue
> with using the name: SRA and Fujitsu being two that come to mind ...
> *shrug*

Well, the examples you gave are both companies with head offices in
Japan. Trademarks in the US are a Big Deal, because of the way
trademarks need to be defended there (there's a great deal of
jurisprudence around this. Hint: there's a reason you can still buy
Bayer(tm) Aspirin(tm) in Canada, and yet you can't in the US). So
US-based companies get very hinkey about trademarks, especially when
they're doing things in an area where they're subject to other PR
issues,

A

--
Andrew Sullivan | ajs(at)crankycanuck(dot)ca
I remember when computers were frustrating because they *did* exactly what
you told them to. That actually seems sort of quaint now.
--J.D. Baldwin

>> sponsorship of community members and projects;

This would be good. But frankly, if they never sponsor nor contribute a
single line of code, the fact that *Sun* is now offering paid support for
Postgres is a *huge* boost. From now on, when a company wants to know
whether there are major firms supporting PG, we have a pat answer. (Assuming
of course that Sun sticks with Postgres and their attention doesn't wander
somewhere else. That is one problem with big companies--priorities sometimes
shift.)

--
Scott Ribe
scott_ribe(at)killerbytes(dot)com
http://www.killerbytes.com/
(303) 665-7007 voice

Devrim GUNDUZ wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Nov 2005, Josh Berkus wrote:
>
> > http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/web_sunflash.html
>
> http://www.sun.com/smi/Press/sunflash/2005-11/sunflash.20051117.1.html
>
> Josh, can you contact with those guys and please make them correct the
> spellings of PostgreSQL (Postgres, PostgresSQL, etc...) in the press link
> I provided above?

Can someone get Sun to fix the typos on their Postgres page?

http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/postgres.jsp

"Many of many customers"

--
Bruce Momjian | http://candle.pha.pa.us
pgman(at)candle(dot)pha(dot)pa(dot)us | (610) 359-1001
+ If your life is a hard drive, | 13 Roberts Road
+ Christ can be your backup. | Newtown Square, Pennsylvania 19073

Marc G. Fournier wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2005, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
>> Josh Berkus wrote:
>>> Unfortunately, it's on purpose. It's Marc's trademark again. I can
>>> say "PostgreSQL" but Sun's PR people are afraid to. :-(

Yet Sun has no problem using "Linux" all over their site
http://www.sun.com/software/linux/index.xml , while every
time IBM mentions Linux (http://www-1.ibm.com/linux/) they
have a footer that says "Linux is a registered trademark of Linus..."

Seems Sun's PR guys are pretty confused.

Hello all:
Just to let you all know, Sun is in trouble. Linux is
taking alot of business away from Sun. Can we trust Sun to do the
right thing. Also, if Sun adds any code to PG, will it continue to be
opensource product. As you can tell, I don't trust these big IT
companies, but they are a necessary evil. How can we protect
ourselves from Sun if they plan to shaft us.

Ezra

On 11/18/05, Scott Ribe <scott_ribe(at)killerbytes(dot)com> wrote:
> >> sponsorship of community members and projects;
>
> This would be good. But frankly, if they never sponsor nor contribute a
> single line of code, the fact that *Sun* is now offering paid support for
> Postgres is a *huge* boost. From now on, when a company wants to know
> whether there are major firms supporting PG, we have a pat answer. (Assuming
> of course that Sun sticks with Postgres and their attention doesn't wander
> somewhere else. That is one problem with big companies--priorities sometimes
> shift.)
>
> --
> Scott Ribe
> scott_ribe(at)killerbytes(dot)com
> http://www.killerbytes.com/
> (303) 665-7007 voice
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
>

On Sat, Nov 19, 2005 at 11:07:55AM -0500, Ezra Taylor wrote:
> Hello all:
> Just to let you all know, Sun is in trouble. Linux is
> taking alot of business away from Sun. Can we trust Sun to do the
> right thing. Also, if Sun adds any code to PG, will it continue to be
> opensource product. As you can tell, I don't trust these big IT
> companies, but they are a necessary evil. How can we protect
> ourselves from Sun if they plan to shaft us.

Umm, if the code they submit is under a BSD licence then it doesn't
matter what they do, we can use it for whatever purpose we like, with
or without their permission. And if they don't put it under the right
licence, we don't include it. I really don't see how they can hurt us
in any way on that front.

Patents are the danger, but no more from Sun than anybody else.

Have a nice day,
--
Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog(at)svana(dot)org> http://svana.org/kleptog/
> Patent. n. Genius is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration. A patent is a
> tool for doing 5% of the work and then sitting around waiting for someone
> else to do the other 95% so you can sue them.

Thanks Martijn.

On 11/19/05, Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog(at)svana(dot)org> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 19, 2005 at 11:07:55AM -0500, Ezra Taylor wrote:
> > Hello all:
> > Just to let you all know, Sun is in trouble. Linux is
> > taking alot of business away from Sun. Can we trust Sun to do the
> > right thing. Also, if Sun adds any code to PG, will it continue to be
> > opensource product. As you can tell, I don't trust these big IT
> > companies, but they are a necessary evil. How can we protect
> > ourselves from Sun if they plan to shaft us.
>
> Umm, if the code they submit is under a BSD licence then it doesn't
> matter what they do, we can use it for whatever purpose we like, with
> or without their permission. And if they don't put it under the right
> licence, we don't include it. I really don't see how they can hurt us
> in any way on that front.
>
> Patents are the danger, but no more from Sun than anybody else.
>
> Have a nice day,
> --
> Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog(at)svana(dot)org> http://svana.org/kleptog/
> > Patent. n. Genius is 5% inspiration and 95% perspiration. A patent is a
> > tool for doing 5% of the work and then sitting around waiting for someone
> > else to do the other 95% so you can sue them.
>
>
>

>
> Yet Sun has no problem using "Linux" all over their site
> http://www.sun.com/software/linux/index.xml , while every
> time IBM mentions Linux (http://www-1.ibm.com/linux/) they
> have a footer that says "Linux is a registered trademark of Linus..."
>
> Seems Sun's PR guys are pretty confused.

Not really. The Linux trademark has very clearly defined rules about who
can use it and how. It is also very, very obvious who owns the Linux
trademark.

The PostgreSQL trademark is this vaque somebody owns it, but were not even
sure if it is enforceable and there is no written policy about it... So
we are just
going to play it safe kind of thing.

Joshua D. Drake

--
The PostgreSQL Company - Command Prompt, Inc. 1.503.667.4564
PostgreSQL Replication, Consulting, Custom Development, 24x7 support
Managed Services, Shared and Dedicated Hosting
Co-Authors: plPHP, plPerlNG - http://www.commandprompt.com/

On Sat, 19 Nov 2005, Ezra Taylor wrote:

> Hello all:
> Just to let you all know, Sun is in trouble. Linux is
> taking alot of business away from Sun. Can we trust Sun to do the
> right thing. Also, if Sun adds any code to PG, will it continue to be
> opensource product. As you can tell, I don't trust these big IT
> companies, but they are a necessary evil. How can we protect
> ourselves from Sun if they plan to shaft us.

How would they shaft us? We only add code to *our* tree that is BSD
licenced, so any code Sun submits to us will have to be the same ... Sun
is "just another operating system company" that happens to now be
providing PostgreSQL as part of their offering ... there are several now
that are doing their own version of PostgreSQL, with 'closed source'
modifications to it ... if Sun decides to do this, they have that option
...

----
Marc G. Fournier Hub.Org Networking Services (http://www.hub.org)
Email: scrappy(at)hub(dot)org Yahoo!: yscrappy ICQ: 7615664

Dana,

> I heard a presentation by Brian Wilson , chief technologist for sun, a
> week ago thursday. Postgresql is, like mysql , part of the "sfw" (sun
> freeware) tree. It is NOT supported by Sun in that you cannot call
> Sunsolve and open a trouble tickeet on it the way you can for e.g. tar
> (the solaris one) or anything else in e.g. /usr/bin .
> there may indeed  be patches issued for it between releases. We shall see.

My understanding is that the annoucement two days ago changes that. That is,
starting "soon" you *will* be able to call Sun if you have problems with
PostgreSQL. I believe the phrase that William Franklin (head of database
stuff at Sun) used was "one throat to choke".

Of course, when Brian presented to you that strategy wasn't public yet, so he
wouldn't have told you about it.

--
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Core Team
josh(at)postgresql(dot)org

(unless specifically indicated, all opinions in the above
e-mail are my own, and should not be taken as opinions of
the Project as a whole.)