Re: Slashdot: SAP and MySQL Join Forces

In case you've not checked out Slashdot in the last day or two:
http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/05/23/1826202&mode=thread&tid=137&tid=198

I tend to agree with the viewpoint that getting anything useful out of
such a merger will be a difficult project.

Anyone suppose they both felt they had to do this because they were each
losing ground to Postgres? If they do make a successful merger of the
best parts of each DB, they'll certainly become a much better combined
competitor ...

regards, tom lane

** Reply to message from Tom Lane <tgl(at)sss(dot)pgh(dot)pa(dot)us> on Sun, 25 May 2003
01:57:34 -0400
Yeah,
We actually had a look at both MySql and SapDB (looks like it used to be
adabas natural ?) as well as Postgres, before attempting our port to an open
source database. We previously had been running over db2 (mostly).

MySql wasn't enough of a dbms to support our requirements (or that of our
clients). SapDb just looked extremely unusual (more effort in the port :).

We have been very pleased with the port to Postgres, and with our clients
eager acceptance of it.

It tends to peeve me that MySql gets its name mentioned in more rags as /the/
example of an open source competitor to the commercials. I guess it goes to
show just how many folk really are using their "database" as a simple
persistence mechanism for fairly trivial apps, or are willing to live with data
inconsistency in their data store.

Regards,
Wayne
Bacchus Management Systems
http://www.bacchus.com.au

> In case you've not checked out Slashdot in the last day or two:
> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/05/23/1826202&mode=thread&tid=137&tid=198
>
> I tend to agree with the viewpoint that getting anything useful out of
> such a merger will be a difficult project.
>
> Anyone suppose they both felt they had to do this because they were each
> losing ground to Postgres? If they do make a successful merger of the
> best parts of each DB, they'll certainly become a much better combined
> competitor ...
>
> regards, tom lane
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
> subscribe-nomail command to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org so that your
> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly

SapDB was what was sold as Adabas D before. Before that it was a Nixdorf
Siemens/Nixdorf product called DDB/4. The database itsself is pretty sound
but the tools that come with it look and feel like 1990.

Detlef

Detlef Engelbrecht, epecon GmbH, Ost-West-Str. 63, D-20457 Hamburg
Tel. +49 40 300 697 37, Cell +49 171 381 5446, Fax +49 40 300 697 31
http://www.epecon.de/, http://www.epecon.com/

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: pgsql-general-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org
[mailto:pgsql-general-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org]Im Auftrag von Wayne
Armstrong
Gesendet: Sonntag, 25. Mai 2003 12:13
An: Tom Lane; pgsql-general(at)postgresql(dot)org
Betreff: Re: [GENERAL] Slashdot: SAP and MySQL Join Forces

** Reply to message from Tom Lane <tgl(at)sss(dot)pgh(dot)pa(dot)us> on Sun, 25 May 2003
01:57:34 -0400
Yeah,
We actually had a look at both MySql and SapDB (looks like it used to be
adabas natural ?) as well as Postgres, before attempting our port to an open
source database. We previously had been running over db2 (mostly).

MySql wasn't enough of a dbms to support our requirements (or that of our
clients). SapDb just looked extremely unusual (more effort in the port :).

We have been very pleased with the port to Postgres, and with our clients
eager acceptance of it.

It tends to peeve me that MySql gets its name mentioned in more rags as
/the/
example of an open source competitor to the commercials. I guess it goes to
show just how many folk really are using their "database" as a simple
persistence mechanism for fairly trivial apps, or are willing to live with
data
inconsistency in their data store.

Regards,
Wayne
Bacchus Management Systems
http://www.bacchus.com.au

> In case you've not checked out Slashdot in the last day or two:
>
http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/05/23/1826202&mode=thread&t
id=137&tid=198
>
> I tend to agree with the viewpoint that getting anything useful out of
> such a merger will be a difficult project.
>
> Anyone suppose they both felt they had to do this because they were each
> losing ground to Postgres? If they do make a successful merger of the
> best parts of each DB, they'll certainly become a much better combined
> competitor ...
>
> regards, tom lane
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
> subscribe-nomail command to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org so that your
> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org

> In case you've not checked out Slashdot in the last day or two:
>
http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/05/23/1826202&mode=thread&t
id=137&tid=198
>
> I tend to agree with the viewpoint that getting anything useful out of
> such a merger will be a difficult project.

It is impossible to merge MySQL and SAP/DB. SAP/DB is written in Pascal.
And the source code is unreadable and very ugly. MySQL group can easier
borrow from PostgreSQL source.

The end product will be called MySQL and I doubt that SAP AG will let
MySQL AB to use SAP name to further promote the product. So people soon
will forget tat it was SAP's database once. So MySQL will nither benefit
from
technology nor from brand recognition.

> Anyone suppose they both felt they had to do this because they were each
> losing ground to Postgres? If they do make a successful merger of the
> best parts of each DB, they'll certainly become a much better combined
> competitor ...

SAP/DB was the only free database for Win32 that supported transactions.
Now, as it is discontinued I think it is an unique chance for PostgreSQL to
establish dominance on Win32 platform. It will be long time before MySQL
will get rid of it's fame as unrliable database. We must act now.

>
> regards, tom lane
>

Nick.

On Mon, 26 May 2003 18:33:21 +0300 Nicolai Tufar <ntufar(at)apb(dot)com(dot)tr> wrote:
> SAP/DB was the only free database for Win32 that supported transactions.

er, no.

http://firebird.sourceforge.net/

richard
--
Richard Welty rwelty(at)averillpark(dot)net
Averill Park Networking 518-573-7592
Unix, Linux, IP Network Engineering, Security

> Tom Lane wrote:

> I tend to agree with the viewpoint that getting anything useful out of
such a merger will be a difficult project.
>
> Anyone suppose they both felt they had to do this because they were
each losing ground to Postgres?
> If they do make a successful merger of the best parts of each DB,
they'll certainly become a much better combined competitor ...

From what I was able to read from the German article your
slashdot-atitcle links to, there won't be a software-merger. Both
parties have joined forces to develop a new databasesystem for
commercial use (whether it'll cost anything isn't mentioned, as far as I
can tell).
This new project will probably take a few years to finish and untill
then the SAPDB will be renamed to mysql or something like that.

Arjen

On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 08:12:32PM +1000, Wayne Armstrong wrote:
>
> MySql wasn't enough of a dbms to support our requirements (or that of our
> clients). SapDb just looked extremely unusual (more effort in the port :).
>
> We have been very pleased with the port to Postgres, and with our clients
> eager acceptance of it.
>
> It tends to peeve me that MySql gets its name mentioned in more rags as /the/
> example of an open source competitor to the commercials. I guess it goes to
> show just how many folk really are using their "database" as a simple
> persistence mechanism for fairly trivial apps, or are willing to live with data
> inconsistency in their data store.

I like postgresql better, but an amazon search produces 52 titles
for mysql. Only 11 come back for postgresql. Some cause/effect
relation exists between available publications and public appeal.
That relation favors mysql by more than a furlong. Go figure.

Maybe SAP likes MySql because Sun and IBM are bad mouthing it;-)
I'm sure DB2 strategists have no influence over IBM's public
statements about other data base products. Aren't you?-)

JPK

** Reply to message from PeterKorman <calvin-pgsql-ml(at)eigenvision(dot)com> on Mon,
26 May 2003 13:52:53 -0400
Actually,
Given Ibm's demonstrated past marketing prowess with software, your'e more
likely to have an ibm rep or an ibm partner badmouth ibm software (and talk up
a competitor) than not. :)

Regards,
Wayne

> On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 08:12:32PM +1000, Wayne Armstrong wrote:
> >
> > MySql wasn't enough of a dbms to support our requirements (or that of our
> > clients). SapDb just looked extremely unusual (more effort in the port :).
> >
> > We have been very pleased with the port to Postgres, and with our clients
> > eager acceptance of it.
> >
> > It tends to peeve me that MySql gets its name mentioned in more rags as /the/
> > example of an open source competitor to the commercials. I guess it goes to
> > show just how many folk really are using their "database" as a simple
> > persistence mechanism for fairly trivial apps, or are willing to live with data
> > inconsistency in their data store.
>
> I like postgresql better, but an amazon search produces 52 titles
> for mysql. Only 11 come back for postgresql. Some cause/effect
> relation exists between available publications and public appeal.
> That relation favors mysql by more than a furlong. Go figure.
>
> Maybe SAP likes MySql because Sun and IBM are bad mouthing it;-)
> I'm sure DB2 strategists have no influence over IBM's public
> statements about other data base products. Aren't you?-)
>
>
> JPK
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

On Sun, May 25, 2003 at 01:57:34AM -0400, Tom Lane wrote:
> In case you've not checked out Slashdot in the last day or two:
> http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/05/23/1826202&mode=thread&tid=137&tid=198
>
> I tend to agree with the viewpoint that getting anything useful out of
> such a merger will be a difficult project.

Quite difficult, I think. Unless there's a lot of work already done
under cover, it will probably be quite some time before real usable
software emerges. In the mean time we have to make sure to have a
really good product so we can compete when (and if) there's something
coming our way.

--
Alvaro Herrera (<alvherre[a]dcc.uchile.cl>)
"I call it GNU/Linux. Except the GNU/ is silent." (Ben Reiter)

PeterKorman wrote:
>
> I like postgresql better, but an amazon search produces 52 titles
> for mysql. Only 11 come back for postgresql. Some cause/effect
> relation exists between available publications and public appeal.
> That relation favors mysql by more than a furlong. Go figure.

I definitely have to agree with this. There were tow reason I first
chose MySQL over Postgres:

1- I was interested in setting up DB backed web site and everyone was
talking about LAMP (Linux + Apache + *MySQL* + PHP) I never heard the
mention of Postgres on any of the PHP mailing lists or web sites.

2- I didn't know anything about DBs (I've only slightly improved ;) and
*knew* I would need a book or three. Amazon had load of MySQL books but
not many Postgres ones, and the few Postgres books that *did* exist did
not seem all that appealing.

The reason I did finally switch over to Postgres was that after trying
out MySQL I found out that it couldn't do what I wanted. I read up again
on Postgres, found out that *it* could do what I wanted and have never
regretted dumping MySQL (it only took me a few weeks to realize it
wasn't what I wanted/needed).

But the lack of books was sorely felt ... Thank goodness this mailing
list exists and people are genuinely friendly and helpful.

In conclusion, more books please, and instead of LAMP let get the word
out about LAPP/LAPoP/LAPgP ;)

--

Jean-Christian Imbeault

On Tue, May 27, 2003 at 11:39:56 +0900,
Jean-Christian Imbeault <jc(at)mega-bucks(dot)co(dot)jp> wrote:
>
> But the lack of books was sorely felt ... Thank goodness this mailing
> list exists and people are genuinely friendly and helpful.
>
> In conclusion, more books please, and instead of LAMP let get the word
> out about LAPP/LAPoP/LAPgP ;)

I really don't see this. Having lots of books doesn't help if they don't
add new information. In fact having more books can be worse because it
may be harder to find a few good books in a sea of bad ones.

And what people really need are books on SQL and relation database theory
which may not have a particular database name associated with them.
In additional they will need books that describes administering the
database they are interested in and a reference manual for the commands
and clients.

The included documentation for Postgres does a reasonable (but not great)
job of covering administering the database. The command refernce part
of the documentation is good. I am not so sure about how easy it is
to get started as it has been a couple of years since I first started
playing with it. I don't remember a quick start guide existing. But with
the shared memory default tweaked, you are less likely to have immediate
problems with shared memory after a default install. You still need to
find out about vacuum/analyze somehow. The correct way is probably to
read the whole manual, but that may put some people off.

On Tue, May 27, 2003 at 11:39:56AM +0900, Jean-Christian Imbeault wrote:
> PeterKorman wrote:
> >
> > I like postgresql better, but an amazon search produces 52 titles
> > for mysql. Only 11 come back for postgresql. Some cause/effect
> > relation exists between available publications and public appeal.
> > That relation favors mysql by more than a furlong. Go figure.
>
> I definitely have to agree with this. There were tow reason I first
> chose MySQL over Postgres:
>
> 1- I was interested in setting up DB backed web site and everyone was
> talking about LAMP (Linux + Apache + *MySQL* + PHP) I never heard the
> mention of Postgres on any of the PHP mailing lists or web sites.
>
> 2- I didn't know anything about DBs (I've only slightly improved ;) and
> *knew* I would need a book or three. Amazon had load of MySQL books but
> not many Postgres ones, and the few Postgres books that *did* exist did
> not seem all that appealing.
>
> The reason I did finally switch over to Postgres was that after trying
> out MySQL I found out that it couldn't do what I wanted. I read up again
> on Postgres, found out that *it* could do what I wanted and have never
> regretted dumping MySQL (it only took me a few weeks to realize it
> wasn't what I wanted/needed).
>
> But the lack of books was sorely felt ... Thank goodness this mailing
> list exists and people are genuinely friendly and helpful.
>
> In conclusion, more books please, and instead of LAMP let get the word
> out about LAPP/LAPoP/LAPgP ;)

My copy of PostgreSQL by Douglas & Douglas (D&D) just arrived. It eases the
book derth with pretty high quality content.

http://www.samspublishing.com/catalog/product.asp?product_id={310F293A-6C05-45CB-A781-FF25FBB6914A}

D&D combined with the searchable:

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/view.php?version=7.2&idoc=1&file=index.html

And the on-line Copy of John Worsley's Wooly Mammoth Book, Practical Postgress

http://www.commandprompt.com/ppbook/

These 3 make a pretty respectable reference trio.

It's possible that reading (and retaining) all of the reference manual
is all you would need for documentation, but I haven't read and retained
a whole reference manual since UCSD Pascal;-)

Cheers,

JPK

On Sat, 2003-05-31 at 14:19, PeterKorman wrote:
[snip]
> My copy of PostgreSQL by Douglas & Douglas (D&D) just arrived. It eases the
> book derth with pretty high quality content.
>
> http://www.samspublishing.com/catalog/product.asp?product_id={310F293A-6C05-45CB-A781-FF25FBB6914A}

Click on that link, get:

Java Exception error '80004005'

java.lang.NullPointerException

C:\INETPUB\WWWROOT\SAMSPUBLISHING\CATALOG\../includes/objects/related_authorX.asp, line 57

--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: ron(dot)l(dot)johnson(at)cox(dot)net |
| Jefferson, LA USA http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson |
| |
| Regarding war zones: "There's nothing sacrosanct about a |
| hotel with a bunch of journalists in it." |
| Marine Lt. Gen. Bernard E. Trainor (Retired) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+

Look at the URL on your browser. It is probably missing the end bracket.

Vincent Hikida,
Member of Technical Staff - Urbana Software, Inc.
"A Personalized Learning Experience"

www.UrbanaSoft.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Johnson" <ron(dot)l(dot)johnson(at)cox(dot)net>
To: <pgsql-general(at)postgresql(dot)org>
Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Slashdot: SAP and MySQL Join Forces

> On Sat, 2003-05-31 at 14:19, PeterKorman wrote:
> [snip]
> > My copy of PostgreSQL by Douglas & Douglas (D&D) just arrived. It eases
the
> > book derth with pretty high quality content.
> >
> >
http://www.samspublishing.com/catalog/product.asp?product_id={310F293A-6C05-
45CB-A781-FF25FBB6914A}
>
> Click on that link, get:
>
> Java Exception error '80004005'
>
> java.lang.NullPointerException
>
>
C:\INETPUB\WWWROOT\SAMSPUBLISHING\CATALOG\../includes/objects/related_author
X.asp, line 57
>
> --
> +-----------------------------------------------------------+
> | Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: ron(dot)l(dot)johnson(at)cox(dot)net |
> | Jefferson, LA USA http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson |
> | |
> | Regarding war zones: "There's nothing sacrosanct about a |
> | hotel with a bunch of journalists in it." |
> | Marine Lt. Gen. Bernard E. Trainor (Retired) |
> +-----------------------------------------------------------+
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org
>

On Sat, 2003-05-31 at 20:55, Vincent Hikida wrote:
> Look at the URL on your browser. It is probably missing the end bracket.

That's it. I wonder why it didn't work...

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Johnson" <ron(dot)l(dot)johnson(at)cox(dot)net>
> To: <pgsql-general(at)postgresql(dot)org>
> Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 6:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Slashdot: SAP and MySQL Join Forces
>
>
> > On Sat, 2003-05-31 at 14:19, PeterKorman wrote:
> > [snip]
> > > My copy of PostgreSQL by Douglas & Douglas (D&D) just arrived. It eases
> the
> > > book derth with pretty high quality content.
> > >
> > >
> http://www.samspublishing.com/catalog/product.asp?product_id={310F293A-6C05-
> 45CB-A781-FF25FBB6914A}
> >
> > Click on that link, get:
> >
> > Java Exception error '80004005'
> >
> > java.lang.NullPointerException
> >
> >
> C:\INETPUB\WWWROOT\SAMSPUBLISHING\CATALOG\../includes/objects/related_author
> X.asp, line 57
> >
> > --
> > +-----------------------------------------------------------+
> > | Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: ron(dot)l(dot)johnson(at)cox(dot)net |
> > | Jefferson, LA USA http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson |
> > | |
> > | Regarding war zones: "There's nothing sacrosanct about a |
> > | hotel with a bunch of journalists in it." |
> > | Marine Lt. Gen. Bernard E. Trainor (Retired) |
> > +-----------------------------------------------------------+
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org
> >
--
+-----------------------------------------------------------+
| Ron Johnson, Jr. Home: ron(dot)l(dot)johnson(at)cox(dot)net |
| Jefferson, LA USA http://members.cox.net/ron.l.johnson |
| |
| Regarding war zones: "There's nothing sacrosanct about a |
| hotel with a bunch of journalists in it." |
| Marine Lt. Gen. Bernard E. Trainor (Retired) |
+-----------------------------------------------------------+