Re: [GENERAL] www.postgresql.org

while i certainly think the new PostgreSQL homepage is an improvement
over the old, i'm just wondering:

why the addition of ads?

-tfo

On Mon, 2003-01-06 at 12:46, Thomas O'Connell wrote:
> why the addition of ads?

There were always ads on the mirror page at www.postgresql.org -- but I
agree with you that the presence of ads in any form is not ideal. I
raised the issue on -hackers yesterday, and it's being discussed ATM...

Cheers,

Neil
--
Neil Conway <neilc(at)samurai(dot)com> || PGP Key ID: DB3C29FC

Thomas O'Connell wrote:
> while i certainly think the new PostgreSQL homepage is an improvement
> over the old, i'm just wondering:
>
> why the addition of ads?
>
> -tfo

Good work! Looks great! To whom do we owe thanks?

Alan Gutierrez

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Alan Gutierrez wrote:

> Thomas O'Connell wrote:
> > while i certainly think the new PostgreSQL homepage is an improvement
> > over the old, i'm just wondering:
> >
> > why the addition of ads?
> >
> > -tfo
>
> Good work! Looks great! To whom do we owe thanks?

Its a work of a group of us, but the "hard coding" is mostly Dave Page's
persistence in trying to match what we kept throwing at him ... :)

Folks,

> There were always ads on the mirror page at www.postgresql.org -- but I
> agree with you that the presence of ads in any form is not ideal. I
> raised the issue on -hackers yesterday, and it's being discussed ATM...

Personally, I'm in favor of ads if it is needed to offset the cost of hosting,
and as long as the advertisers are companies which support Open Source.

In fact, I was thinking of buying an ad myself.

--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

I have my own comments...
1) How come when I go to: "PostgreSQL Technical Documentation" off the main
page there are no manuals listed? No user manual, no admin manual, no
installation manual.

One of the great things about php's site is that you are immediately in the
documentation - they have a search bar at the top, and the documentation
link takes you to the docs page, where the user manual is at the top.

2) "Released docs" link n the sidebar is dead:
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/

3) Where can I get info on namespaces?

I don't like ads....

How about a vote....

The problem with Ads is who gets to decide what goes....where do we darw
the lines,
And all that greed vs solution for the sake of solution comes in...
The Operating Expenses needs to be solved a different way....including
tax deductable
contributioins....

Josh Berkus wrote:

>Folks,
>
>
>
>>There were always ads on the mirror page at www.postgresql.org -- but I
>>agree with you that the presence of ads in any form is not ideal. I
>>raised the issue on -hackers yesterday, and it's being discussed ATM...
>>
>>
>
>Personally, I'm in favor of ads if it is needed to offset the cost of hosting,
>and as long as the advertisers are companies which support Open Source.
>
>In fact, I was thinking of buying an ad myself.
>
>
>

Seems like we should let the core developers decide... perhaps they could
create a small (3 peson) "ad board" that would decide...

I agree it would be nicer not to have them and if everyone donated, but
not everyone does, so if this helps offset costs, I'm all for it...

-philip

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Medi Montaseri wrote:

> I don't like ads....
>
> How about a vote....
>
> The problem with Ads is who gets to decide what goes....where do we darw
> the lines,
> And all that greed vs solution for the sake of solution comes in...
> The Operating Expenses needs to be solved a different way....including
> tax deductable
> contributioins....
>
> Josh Berkus wrote:
>
> >Folks,
> >
> >
> >
> >>There were always ads on the mirror page at www.postgresql.org -- but I
> >>agree with you that the presence of ads in any form is not ideal. I
> >>raised the issue on -hackers yesterday, and it's being discussed ATM...
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Personally, I'm in favor of ads if it is needed to offset the cost of hosting,
> >and as long as the advertisers are companies which support Open Source.
> >
> >In fact, I was thinking of buying an ad myself.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
> subscribe-nomail command to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org so that your
> message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
>

Ok we vote and that who vote against it are paying the costs
no problem from that point of view

And with that opinion: "other sites don't have banners"
www.postgresql.org is no other site.
If we can improve webpages with the income of the ads why not.
All talk about marketing ... ADS ARE SOME KIND OF MARKETING

It's an honor that someone wants to place ads on a site cause then the
site is viewed by many people.

regards Ewald

Medi Montaseri schrieb:

> I don't like ads....
>
> How about a vote....
>
> The problem with Ads is who gets to decide what goes....where do we
> darw the lines,
> And all that greed vs solution for the sake of solution comes in...
> The Operating Expenses needs to be solved a different way....including
> tax deductable
> contributioins....
>
> Josh Berkus wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>>> There were always ads on the mirror page at www.postgresql.org -- but I
>>> agree with you that the presence of ads in any form is not ideal. I
>>> raised the issue on -hackers yesterday, and it's being discussed ATM...
>>>
>>
>>
>> Personally, I'm in favor of ads if it is needed to offset the cost of
>> hosting, and as long as the advertisers are companies which support
>> Open Source.
>>
>> In fact, I was thinking of buying an ad myself.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>
> http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
>
>

I would be more than happy to pay into a paypal or some other account to
cover hosting costs for the www.postgresql.org site. I'm sure many
others would feel the same way.

Cheers,
Gavin

Ewald Geschwinde wrote:

> Ok we vote and that who vote against it are paying the costs
> no problem from that point of view
>
>
> And with that opinion: "other sites don't have banners"
> www.postgresql.org is no other site.
> If we can improve webpages with the income of the ads why not.
> All talk about marketing ... ADS ARE SOME KIND OF MARKETING
>
> It's an honor that someone wants to place ads on a site cause then the
> site is viewed by many people.
>
> regards Ewald
>
>
> Medi Montaseri schrieb:
>
>> I don't like ads....
>>
>> How about a vote....
>>
>> The problem with Ads is who gets to decide what goes....where do we
>> darw the lines,
>> And all that greed vs solution for the sake of solution comes in...
>> The Operating Expenses needs to be solved a different
>> way....including tax deductable
>> contributioins....
>>
>> Josh Berkus wrote:
>>
>>> Folks,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> There were always ads on the mirror page at www.postgresql.org --
>>>> but I
>>>> agree with you that the presence of ads in any form is not ideal. I
>>>> raised the issue on -hackers yesterday, and it's being discussed
>>>> ATM...
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Personally, I'm in favor of ads if it is needed to offset the cost
>>> of hosting, and as long as the advertisers are companies which
>>> support Open Source.
>>>
>>> In fact, I was thinking of buying an ad myself.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
>>
>> http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
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>

Would RedHat sponsor us now that they have money? ;-)
How much per annum would it cost for is to get a box and user their
connection? - probably less than doing it ourselves. While we're on that
train of thought... Have any OSS sites ever thought about consolidating
everything and bidding on everyone's stuff as one big package? It could
probably save a whole lot...

-----Original Message-----
From: pgsql-advocacy-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org
[mailto:pgsql-advocacy-owner(at)postgresql(dot)org]On Behalf Of Medi Montaseri
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 2:46 PM
To: josh(at)agliodbs(dot)com
Cc: Neil Conway; Thomas O'Connell; PostgreSQL General; PostgreSQL
Advocacy
Subject: Re: [pgsql-advocacy] [GENERAL] www.postgresql.org

I don't like ads....

How about a vote....

The problem with Ads is who gets to decide what goes....where do we darw
the lines,
And all that greed vs solution for the sake of solution comes in...
The Operating Expenses needs to be solved a different way....including
tax deductable
contributioins....

Josh Berkus wrote:

>Folks,
>
>
>
>>There were always ads on the mirror page at www.postgresql.org -- but I
>>agree with you that the presence of ads in any form is not ideal. I
>>raised the issue on -hackers yesterday, and it's being discussed ATM...
>>
>>
>
>Personally, I'm in favor of ads if it is needed to offset the cost of
hosting,
>and as long as the advertisers are companies which support Open Source.
>
>In fact, I was thinking of buying an ad myself.
>
>
>

---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?

http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html

I'm with Gavin and the others who think the site is better off
without ads.

What are the hosting costs? I'll happily pitch in $50 CAD a year to
help with hosting, just tell me where to send it. Paypal works for me
too.

The ads are not just irrelevant, they cheapen the site. I know this
isn't a "corporate" site, but it's a product site, a database site,
and it therefore exists in a context of other similar sites. It
doesn't need to be a clone of any of them, but it should recognize
that it is in competition, it doesn't exist in a vacuum.

It should focus on PostgreSQL, not car rentals and accommodations in
Greece, not hosting, not funeral homes, not tourism in the Maritimes.

Clicking on any ad currently brings you to Hub.org. And the RHID ad
is sized so badly that the text across the bottom seems to read
"cavelopnert" in all three of my browsers.

This new site is a great advance over the old one, kudos to all
involved... but there's still an "advertross" around its neck.

- Shane McChesney

On Mon, 06 Jan 2003 12:05:17 -0800, Gavin M. Roy wrote:
>I would be more than happy to pay into a paypal or some other
>account to cover hosting costs for the www.postgresql.org site. I'm
>sure many others would feel the same way.
>
>Cheers, Gavin
>
>Ewald Geschwinde wrote:
>

For my 5c, and as a web developer and recent Postgresql convert. ;-)

People go to websites for the content and information available. If the
Postgresql environment and community can improve its ability to come
across to a wider audience by improving its main website and making
their point clearer and information easier to access, then I think the
"visibility" of advertisements is a small price to pay.

I think it's a marked over the previous iteration. It appears well
ordered, its pleasent to the eye, and the advertisements are subtle than
intrusive.

Well done people.

Hadley.

On Tue, 2003-01-07 at 08:53, Philip Hallstrom wrote:
> Seems like we should let the core developers decide... perhaps they could
> create a small (3 peson) "ad board" that would decide...
>
> I agree it would be nicer not to have them and if everyone donated, but
> not everyone does, so if this helps offset costs, I'm all for it...
>
> -philip
>
> On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Medi Montaseri wrote:
>
> > I don't like ads....
> >
> > How about a vote....
> >
> > The problem with Ads is who gets to decide what goes....where do we darw
> > the lines,
> > And all that greed vs solution for the sake of solution comes in...
> > The Operating Expenses needs to be solved a different way....including
> > tax deductable
> > contributioins....
> >
> > Josh Berkus wrote:
> >
> > >Folks,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>There were always ads on the mirror page at www.postgresql.org -- but I
> > >>agree with you that the presence of ads in any form is not ideal. I
> > >>raised the issue on -hackers yesterday, and it's being discussed ATM...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >Personally, I'm in favor of ads if it is needed to offset the cost of hosting,
> > >and as long as the advertisers are companies which support Open Source.
> > >
> > >In fact, I was thinking of buying an ad myself.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> > TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
> > subscribe-nomail command to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org so that your
> > message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
>
> http://archives.postgresql.org
--
Hadley Willan > Systems Development > Deeper Design Limited. +64(7)377-3328
hadley(dot)willan(at)deeperdesign(dot)co(dot)nz > www.deeperdesign.com > +64(21)-28-41-463
Level 1, 4 Tamamutu St, PO Box 90, TAUPO 2730, New Zealand.

Folks,

Currently, Hub.org, the ISP, donates hosting services for the PostgreSQL.org
"master" site. As the donor, they set the terms under which hosting is
provided, including ads, and we can only ask politely for a change.

If people feel strongly about the adds, I suggest the following:
1) That someone solicit for firm pledges to donate toward hosting costs.
2) Once enough has been collected to pay for one year of hosting, approach
Hub.org and suggest that they switch from ad-supported to donation-supported.
3) Collect the pledges, and *then* switch over.

Bruce Momjian did solicit for hosting donations over a year ago, before we had
the ads. As far as I know, I was the only person to donate. So please
don't be hasty to dispose other people's property.

--
-Josh Berkus
Aglio Database Solutions
San Francisco

P.S.: please let's *not* do this by Paypal -- at least one OS project has had
their account cleaned out by Paypal.

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Josh Berkus wrote:

> Bruce Momjian did solicit for hosting donations over a year ago, before
> we had the ads. As far as I know, I was the only person to donate. So
> please don't be hasty to dispose other people's property.

Actually, Bruce always steps up to the plate as well ...

We had setup the whole PgMerchandise stuff as a means to provide ppl with
an easy mechanism to support, as well as advertise to, PostgreSQL ... but
ppl only need sooooo many t-shirts :) So that avenue of offsetting costs
has been kinda dry the past few months ...

We're currently in the process of setting up shop in a co-lo, vs dedicated
server ... we pay for/own the server itself, and only pay for the "space"
... if all goes well, and growth continues (or picks up) on the hosting
side such that the postgresql servers aren't >50% of our bandwidth, then
we'll most likely be able to drop off the banners :)

Trust me ... we are working on it ...

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Marc G. Fournier wrote:

> We had setup the whole PgMerchandise stuff as a means to provide ppl with
> an easy mechanism to support, as well as advertise to, PostgreSQL ... but
> ppl only need sooooo many t-shirts :) So that avenue of offsetting costs
> has been kinda dry the past few months ...

Speaking of which, I didn't see this at www.postgresql.com. Did I miss
it? I'd like to get some more key fobs and mugs. Not a tee-shirt kind of
guy. :-)

Rod
--
"Open Source Software - Sometimes you get more than you paid for..."

On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Roderick A. Anderson wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Jan 2003, Marc G. Fournier wrote:
>
> > We had setup the whole PgMerchandise stuff as a means to provide ppl with
> > an easy mechanism to support, as well as advertise to, PostgreSQL ... but
> > ppl only need sooooo many t-shirts :) So that avenue of offsetting costs
> > has been kinda dry the past few months ...
>
> Speaking of which, I didn't see this at www.postgresql.com. Did I miss
> it? I'd like to get some more key fobs and mugs. Not a tee-shirt kind of
> guy. :-)

*groan* now there could be another good reason why things have drop'd off
:(

Check out: http://store.pgsql.com

I've heard whisperings that there are some problems with it, but nobody
has ever reported anything directly to me, so if you find problems, please
let me know so that we can get them fixed ...

> We had setup the whole PgMerchandise stuff as a means to provide ppl with
> an easy mechanism to support, as well as advertise to, PostgreSQL ... but
> ppl only need sooooo many t-shirts :) So that avenue of offsetting costs
> has been kinda dry the past few months ...

I might help if there were actually photos of the t-shirts on
store.pgsql.com...

Chris

I'm in favour of ads if the ads actually generate net benefit to pgsql.
e.g. If they pay only for clickthroughs it's usually not worth having
ads[1]. Or the ads use more bandwidth than they pay for.

The new site has broken links to docs:

http://techdocs.postgresql.org/ ->User's Lounge -> Released docs:

http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/ <- broken.

The new site also has a broken link to User's lounge - it goes to mirrors.

New site needs link to store.pgsql.com

Link.

[1] Not very likely that people will click on "Harmony Cruises" when they
are very busy looking for Postgresql info. They may remember the name for
later, but not click through.

At 11:05 AM 1/6/03 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:

>Personally, I'm in favor of ads if it is needed to offset the cost of
>hosting,
>and as long as the advertisers are companies which support Open Source.
>
>In fact, I was thinking of buying an ad myself.
>
>--
>-Josh Berkus
> Aglio Database Solutions
> San Francisco
>
>
>---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
>TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster

Yeah,

At Troubleshooters.Com, our experience is that hosting ads isn't worth it.
Word is out that ads are so ineffective, that people are unwilling to pay
even a penny per impression.

Perhaps you could have third parties host small (5 paragraph) essays, with a
link to their website. Bandwidth is about the same as a banner ad, but the
essay, if written right, goes a long way to giving the author credibility. At
the bottom of the essay (or maybe at the top) is a link to their commercial
web page. I think that type of advertising might be effective enough to draw
revenue.

All essays should be valuable to the reader whether or not he or she purchases
the product. But of course, you'll learn/get a lot more if you purchase the
product.

Steve

--
Steve Litt
Author:
* Universal Troubleshooting Process courseware
* Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist
* Rapid Learning: Secret Weapon of the Successful Technologist
Webmaster
* Troubleshooters.Com
* http://www.troubleshooters.com

(Legal Disclaimer) Follow these suggestions at your own risk.

On Tuesday 07 January 2003 10:00 am, Lincoln Yeoh wrote:
> I'm in favour of ads if the ads actually generate net benefit to pgsql.
> e.g. If they pay only for clickthroughs it's usually not worth having
> ads[1]. Or the ads use more bandwidth than they pay for.
>
> The new site has broken links to docs:
>
> http://techdocs.postgresql.org/ ->User's Lounge -> Released docs:
>
> http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/ <- broken.
>
> The new site also has a broken link to User's lounge - it goes to mirrors.
>
> New site needs link to store.pgsql.com
>
> Link.
>
> [1] Not very likely that people will click on "Harmony Cruises" when they
> are very busy looking for Postgresql info. They may remember the name for
> later, but not click through.
>
> At 11:05 AM 1/6/03 -0800, Josh Berkus wrote:
> >Personally, I'm in favor of ads if it is needed to offset the cost of
> >hosting,
> >and as long as the advertisers are companies which support Open Source.
> >
> >In fact, I was thinking of buying an ad myself.
> >
> >--
> >-Josh Berkus
> > Aglio Database Solutions
> > San Francisco
> >
> >
> >---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> >TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
>
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
> TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
> (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo(at)postgresql(dot)org)

On 7 Jan 2003 at 10:49, Steve Litt wrote:

> At Troubleshooters.Com, our experience is that hosting ads isn't worth it.
> Word is out that ads are so ineffective, that people are unwilling to pay
> even a penny per impression.

My experience running freebsddiary.org, freshports.org, and
freshsource.org differs from that of the above.

> Perhaps you could have third parties host small (5 paragraph) essays, with a
> link to their website. Bandwidth is about the same as a banner ad, but the
> essay, if written right, goes a long way to giving the author credibility. At
> the bottom of the essay (or maybe at the top) is a link to their commercial
> web page. I think that type of advertising might be effective enough to draw
> revenue.
>
> All essays should be valuable to the reader whether or not he or she purchases
> the product. But of course, you'll learn/get a lot more if you purchase the
> product.

I think that those who are objecting to ads on the site should follow
the suggestion given by Josh Berkus at
http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2003-01/msg00191.php

In other words, stop providing suggestions as to what can be done.
Get off your own ass and do it. In short, put up or shut up.

--
Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/

Working on it ... didn't know until you wrote this that we didn't have any
:( Have taken the pics, just in the process of moving, so haven't been
able to find my cable for my camera :(

On Tue, 7 Jan 2003, Christopher Kings-Lynne wrote:

> > We had setup the whole PgMerchandise stuff as a means to provide ppl with
> > an easy mechanism to support, as well as advertise to, PostgreSQL ... but
> > ppl only need sooooo many t-shirts :) So that avenue of offsetting costs
> > has been kinda dry the past few months ...
>
> I might help if there were actually photos of the t-shirts on
> store.pgsql.com...
>
> Chris
>
>